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#2024633 - 12/08/17 10:21 AM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: 58hawk]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: 58hawk
Can't wait to see his name on the Ring of Honor
Cart before the horse time? I know how much you like horse references...
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Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2024649 - 12/08/17 12:39 PM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: Kman_blue]
jhawkblue Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 10/28/13
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue

And in response to the 2nd part in bold, so the opposing Big 12 coaches who coached against KU and Dineen and watched what he did against whom voted him 2nd team All-Big 12 by mistake or out of pity or because they didn't realize how and why he got some of his stats or they thought he did most of his work against 3rd stringers trying to run out the clock so deserved to be 2nd team All-Big 12? Doesn't add up to me.




Your opinion though comes across more like this, Dineen is an average LB'er who only looks good because our D sucked and was poorly coached so there has to be 75+ or more LB'ers out there more deserving for All-American honors than him, including quite a few within the Big 12 as he doesn't deserve that honor either. Maybe you didn't mean it like that, but that's how it reads.


surely you are not naive enough to think that any Big 12 coach actually voted themselves Lincoln Riley and staff had a conf champ game and now a playoff to worry about do you really think that he or any other coaching staff working on recruiting and/or bowl prep took time to vote no just like the coaches poll they had a GA do it and they may or may not have even looked at it.

actually I think that Dineen is a real solid LB who shows lots of effort on the field and I if he were on a better def thats all anyone would think, but he just happened to be on a very bad def that resulted in an exorbitant amount of tackles stats

if you disagree and believe him to be one of the top few LBs in the country thats fine, everyone has the right to their opinion

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#2024653 - 12/08/17 04:26 PM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: jhawkblue]
beenahawk Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 09/01/02
Loc: Topeka, Kansas
Originally Posted By: jhawkblue
actually I think that Dineen is a real solid LB who shows lots of effort on the field and I if he were on a better def thats all anyone would think, but he just happened to be on a very bad def that resulted in an exorbitant amount of tackles stats

if you disagree and believe him to be one of the top few LBs in the country thats fine, everyone has the right to their opinion


I tend to agree. Dineen is a good LB, no question about that, but no way does he make that many tackles on even an average defensive unit so I am not about ready to put him along side Willie Pless in the Ring of Honor.

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#2024658 - 12/08/17 05:41 PM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: beenahawk]
Jman1 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 12/12/03
Congrats to Dineen. He was the rock of an ill fated defense. He did his best, performed well and that should be commended and rewarded.

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#2024667 - 12/08/17 09:48 PM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: jhawkblue]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: jhawkblue
surely you are not naive enough to think that any Big 12 coach actually voted themselves Lincoln Riley and staff had a conf champ game and now a playoff to worry about do you really think that he or any other coaching staff working on recruiting and/or bowl prep took time to vote no just like the coaches poll they had a GA do it and they may or may not have even looked at it.

actually I think that Dineen is a real solid LB who shows lots of effort on the field and I if he were on a better def thats all anyone would think, but he just happened to be on a very bad def that resulted in an exorbitant amount of tackles stats

if you disagree and believe him to be one of the top few LBs in the country thats fine, everyone has the right to their opinion


OK, so it looks like you agree with my initial assessment of your opinion now, that SI and the Big 12 coaches don't sh|it about football, because now you're saying that the Big 12 All-Conference teams are just some random GA's opinions.

Do I think coaches are putting in significant time to make their votes? No, but I also don't think some GA on each team is just voting for their personal favorites or something either. I think there's a little more to the All-Conference teams than that otherwise, why even have them if they're so arbitrary and meaningless?

Like I said about the SI All-American honor, I could see an argument about how this other LB'er or that one (again some specific LB'ers by name) was better and thus deserved the honor instead of Dineen.

Again, if he's just a real solid LB'er who shows lots of effort on a very bad def he's not getting SI All-American honors nor even Big 12 All-Conference honors IMO. He's also not leading the nation in solo tackles or in the top 3 in the nation in tackles and TFL's either. I think you're selling him way short here.

I'm not saying he's the perfect LB'er or the very best in the country. He has his weaknesses as I've pointed out several times over the season. I also don't think there's 75+ other LB'ers out there better than him either. Personally, I think he's proven to be a worthy All-Conference level LB'er and legitimately an arguable candidate for national honors. You don't put up the stats he's put up no matter what kind of D you played on without some serious talent.

I think there's been a ridiculous season long unwarranted attack on his talent and skill set and I don't get it. Not saying you were part of that, but your opinion of him being just average or merely a recipient of great stats because the D he played on was bad and he plays with a lot of effort is in the same vein as that IMHO. I think his stats and performance on the field speaks for themselves as do the honors he's been getting since the end of the regular season and fly in the face of the season long low opinion of him several KU fans have.
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#2024669 - 12/08/17 10:06 PM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: beenahawk]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: beenahawk
I tend to agree. Dineen is a good LB, no question about that, but no way does he make that many tackles on even an average defensive unit so I am not about ready to put him along side Willie Pless in the Ring of Honor.
Now, don't go getting all crazy here!

Even being named a consensus first team All-American LB'er wouldn't necessarily put him on the level of Willie Pless!

Willie Pless was only named the very best LB'er of all time within the Big 8 by the Big 8 when it officially ended upon the merger of the remains of the SWC with it. That's of the entire history of the Big 8! Pless is a once in 3 or 4 generations type talent IMHO. Guys like him just don't come along very often.

As for how many tackles Dineen would have had on a better D, I've got no idea. I think his TFL numbers being #3 in the nation show that he'd still have a ton of tackles but there's no way to know for sure of course.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024670 - 12/08/17 10:14 PM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: Kman_blue]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Just out of curiosity I looked up the top 5 players in solo tackles over the past 4 years. I counted up all of the LB'ers in the top 5 over those years. There were 11 who've graduated and another 3 that are still playing college ball. Out of the 11 who've moved on, 9 made it to the NFL.

9 out of the past 11 LB'ers to be in the top 5 in the nation in solo tackles made it to the NFL and all but 1 (he's playing in the CFL now) are currently on NFL rosters. 1 is former KU great Ben Heeney BTW.

They played on all sorts of D's too. From real good ones to bad ones.

Dineen finished 1st in the country this year in solo tackles for reference.

Just an interesting set of facts IMO.


Edited by Kman_blue (12/09/17 02:29 AM)
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024706 - 12/09/17 11:45 AM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: Kman_blue]
Jman1 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 12/12/03
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Just out of curiosity I looked up the top 5 players in solo tackles over the past 4 years. I counted up all of the LB'ers in the top 5 over those years. There were 11 who've graduated and another 3 that are still playing college ball. Out of the 11 who've moved on, 9 made it to the NFL.

9 out of the past 11 LB'ers to be in the top 5 in the nation in solo tackles made it to the NFL and all but 1 (he's playing in the CFL now) are currently on NFL rosters. 1 is former KU great Ben Heeney BTW.

They played on all sorts of D's too. From real good ones to bad ones.

Dineen finished 1st in the country this year in solo tackles for reference.

Just an interesting set of facts IMO.


No disrespect to JD but I personally don't think he ever starts in the NFL. Probably won't even get drafted but will sign somewhere free agent. He will probably make a 53, but get used on special teams and will probably be solid. If Heeney has a tough time starting in the NFL I don't think JD can or will; i think Heeney is the better, stronger, more physical version of JD.

Now Daniel Wise is another story. He will declare for the draft this year and prolly get gone in teh 4-5 round to none other than the New England Patriots. He is their type of player among other Factors(wink wink). That will be the ceremonious final nail in the coffin for beaty, as his D can't afford to lose the best player on D that was worst in the nation.

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#2024715 - 12/09/17 03:02 PM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: Jman1]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
You could very well be right on all of that. I wouldn't be surprised if it plays out similarly to how you lay it out.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024741 - 12/10/17 08:03 AM Re: Congratulations to Joe Dineen! [Re: Jman1]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Jman1
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Just out of curiosity I looked up the top 5 players in solo tackles over the past 4 years. I counted up all of the LB'ers in the top 5 over those years. There were 11 who've graduated and another 3 that are still playing college ball. Out of the 11 who've moved on, 9 made it to the NFL.

9 out of the past 11 LB'ers to be in the top 5 in the nation in solo tackles made it to the NFL and all but 1 (he's playing in the CFL now) are currently on NFL rosters. 1 is former KU great Ben Heeney BTW.

They played on all sorts of D's too. From real good ones to bad ones.

Dineen finished 1st in the country this year in solo tackles for reference.

Just an interesting set of facts IMO.


No disrespect to JD but I personally don't think he ever starts in the NFL. Probably won't even get drafted but will sign somewhere free agent. He will probably make a 53, but get used on special teams and will probably be solid. If Heeney has a tough time starting in the NFL I don't think JD can or will; i think Heeney is the better, stronger, more physical version of JD.

Now Daniel Wise is another story. He will declare for the draft this year and prolly get gone in teh 4-5 round to none other than the New England Patriots. He is their type of player among other Factors(wink wink). That will be the ceremonious final nail in the coffin for beaty, as his D can't afford to lose the best player on D that was worst in the nation.
It's a shame that Beaty can't be offered a buyout rather than be painted with the same brush as Zenger next year.
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Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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