Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#900465 - 07/10/09 03:34 PM Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle...
jnewell Offline
Crimson & Blue Blood

Registered: 08/07/08
Loc: Lawrence, KS
for minor league pitchers Dan Cortes and Derrick Saito.

I'm waiting for the JFish verdict, though I already know what it's going to be with another low-OBP guy added to the roster.

Top
#900466 - 07/10/09 03:42 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: jnewell]
oreadical Offline
Resident Duck

Registered: 09/29/05
Loc: TJ's Fanny Pack
At least he's better than TPJ offensively...

BA: .250 vs. .089
OBP: .278 vs. .128

Head-to-Head
_________________________
Anas mortis

Top
#900467 - 07/10/09 04:17 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: oreadical]
KUshark Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 01/17/08
Loc: Mulletville!
Yeah, this is already getting panned big time. Check out the thoughts of this guy:

Yikes!

I don't think Fish will care for this at all!

Top
#900468 - 07/10/09 04:32 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: jnewell]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Betancourt blows, however the silver lining could be that TPJ will get DFA'd.
The primary player we gave up was Daniel Cortes. At times considered a good prospect in AA ball, but seems to have hit a wall and has struggled much of the past two seasons. He is considered a head case and recently had a legal issue in Arkansas.
I don't care for Betancourt, but we didn't give much up, so it was low risk.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

Top
#900469 - 07/10/09 04:39 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: jammahawk]
crzykufan987 Offline
Big Dipper

Registered: 08/28/05
I'm sick of seeing Dayton trade for could-be players. It would be nice to get a proven player over here for once. What am i complaining about though? Cortes seems to be slipping majorly. Betancourt is only 27, and we didn't have to give up any part of our rotation or one our few good relief pitchers for what could be the solution to our SS problems this year. I mean.. that's as positive as it looks to me.
_________________________
KC Royals... Dynasty

Top
#900470 - 07/10/09 04:43 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: crzykufan987]
larryb Offline
Gutter

Registered: 05/02/07
Loc: Work
Blame your owner not your GM.
_________________________
Rock Chalk my brothers and sisters!

Top
#900471 - 07/10/09 04:49 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: larryb]
laidbak_bb Offline
Big Dipper

Registered: 09/28/07
Loc: Lawrence
here's a silver lining, from the email alert sent byroyals.com, gotta love baseball stats:

"Since becoming the Mariners full-time shortstop in 2006, his 341 double plays rank second in all of baseball to Oakland's Orlando Cabrera (357). "
_________________________
We are all our own devil, and we make this world our hell

Top
#900472 - 07/10/09 05:00 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: laidbak_bb]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
This trade is BRILLIANT....ugh.
_________________________
kusports.net Peace Out and Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

Top
#900473 - 07/10/09 05:54 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: jayhwk01]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
All the bozos on 810 keep saying, "well, at least they got better", and they're all wrong. The Royals' BENCH got better, because it will now be without Pena (we can only pray) and will have Bloomquist. The problem is that Bloomquist, as mediocre as he's been this year, is still world's better than Betancourt offensively, so the everyday lineup just got worse. A LOT worse. And since Betancourt also has no speed, no defensive flexibility, and isn't that good at the only defensive position he does play, this would be a bad deal even if the Royals gave up nothing to get him. Throw in the loss of Cortes and Saito and this might represent Moore's worst deal to date. And that's saying something.

Top
#900474 - 07/11/09 11:33 AM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: Hawk1990]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

All the bozos on 810 keep saying, "well, at least they got better", and they're all wrong. The Royals' BENCH got better, because it will now be without Pena (we can only pray) and will have Bloomquist. The problem is that Bloomquist, as mediocre as he's been this year, is still world's better than Betancourt offensively, so the everyday lineup just got worse. A LOT worse. And since Betancourt also has no speed, no defensive flexibility, and isn't that good at the only defensive position he does play, this would be a bad deal even if the Royals gave up nothing to get him. Throw in the loss of Cortes and Saito and this might represent Moore's worst deal to date. And that's saying something.




I won't consider it a terrible deal until I'm convinced Betancourt is meant to be anything other than a bridge to a player (Bianchi) that will be ready by '11.
Moving Cortes and Saito should not be considered a loss. Cortes will have been passed up on the prospect list by at least four other pitchers in the organization within the next year.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

Top
#900475 - 07/11/09 08:42 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle... [Re: jnewell]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

for minor league pitchers Dan Cortes and Derrick Saito.

I'm waiting for the JFish verdict, though I already know what it's going to be with another low-OBP guy added to the roster.




Its not necessarily the OBP that gets me...there are good players with below-average OBP's. With Yuni, I guess I'm much more struck with the fact that he sucks at every facet of baseball except hitting for average. Terrible move.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900476 - 07/12/09 02:21 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

Quote:

for minor league pitchers Dan Cortes and Derrick Saito.

I'm waiting for the JFish verdict, though I already know what it's going to be with another low-OBP guy added to the roster.




Its not necessarily the OBP that gets me...there are good players with below-average OBP's. With Yuni, I guess I'm much more struck with the fact that he sucks at every facet of baseball except hitting for average. Terrible move.




I'm not going to call it a terrible move, the individuals involved in this trade will have minimal impact on either organization.
If Betancourt's presence on the roster were keeping a legit prospect from getting playing time, then yes it would be terrible, but we don't, the closest prospect we have at SS is currently at AA level.
This would be a terrible trade had we given up a blue chip prospect, we didn't. We gave up a AA pitcher whose status as a prospect has quickly been circling the drain.
This trade will be of very little consequence, one thing it does mean is I won't ever have to see the left side of the infield consist of TPJ and Hernandez.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

Top
#900477 - 07/12/09 02:40 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
You're missing something there, though...this does nothing to help the team in any way--now, next year, or for the next five years. Bash Cortes all you want, but he hadn't even been tried out of the bullpen yet. The way this trade works, the Royals are paying the Mariners to take Betancourt off their roster. Miserable, miserable move for an organization which just cannot afford to waste resources. Betancourt is a bad baseball player, and for the Royals to give up anything of value at all for him is disastrous. This costs the Royals money and a roster spot and does not represent even a viable short-term solution at the position.

So, while this trade cannot obviously sink this season's hopes, it is just another data point in a growing set suggesting Moore has an alarmingly bad process for evaluating major league hitters.

---------------------

Money quotes...

Jazayerli:

"In today’s game, you simply can’t be successful as a general manager if you ignore half the information that’s available to you. A GM that fired all of his scouts and relied on an army of MIT grads to evaluate his players would be mocked – and rightfully so – as someone leading his team down the fast track to hell. I see no reason why a GM that ignores every shred of statistical evidence when making baseball decisions shouldn’t be treated in a similar fashion.


And make no mistake: this trade closes the argument that the Royals have even a superficial understanding of statistics. The Royals don’t understand the first rule of offensive statistics: that the most important offensive skill is the ability to reach base. They don’t pay any attention to defensive statistics, even though the sabermetric community has made huge strides in the evaluation of defense over the last 5-10 years: the Royals still persist in the delusion that Betancourt is a fine defensive player, even though the numbers (and a growing segment of scouts) agree that he is a liability in the field.

[...]

Dayton Moore is a fine judge of prospects. But – this is critical – someone needs to tell him that Yuniesky Betancourt IS NOT A PROSPECT ANYMORE. He’s not a 21-year-old kid that can be judged solely on his tools. He’s a 27-year-old with a long track record in the major leagues. At his age, that track record is at least as important as his skill set when it comes to projecting his future. You can’t judge established major leaguers the way you do prospects, and every time Moore has acquired an established major league hitter on the basis of his tools, he has been burned. Every. Single. Time."

Poz:

"And at the end of the day, I guess, it’s pretty simple to sum up: The Royals are team that cannot field, hit, hit with power, run or walk. They just traded for a player who cannot field, hit, hit with power, run or walk. I’m just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round — I really love to watch them roll."

"The numbers I see suggest that Yuniesky Betancourt is a terrible defensive shortstop. Not a mediocre shortstop. Not a talented but sloppy shortstop. Not a shaky shortstop. No. Terrible. Ghastly. Tragic. I’ve already shown you his UZR numbers, his John Dewan plus/minus numbers — they tell the story of a shortstop who was never especially great (despite his ability to make sensational plays) and has progressively gotten worse and worse until now he has no range, no consistency and might be the worst defensive shortstop in the game.

[...]

The numbers I see suggest that Yuniesky Betancourt is the worst every day offensive player in the American League and has been for quite some time. There are countless numbers I can use to make this point — at the most basic level, Betancourt’s .299 on-base percentage since 2007 is the worst in baseball for anyone with 1,300 or more plate appearances.

[...]

Either the Royals are right or the numbers (as I look at them here) are right. For years now, Kansas City fans have been stuck rooting for the Royals to beat the numbers. And, for years now, the numbers have been kicking the Royals butts."

Neyer:

"This franchise's single biggest problem has, for many years, been lousy on-base percentages. Last winter, one of Dayton Moore's big moves was the acquisition of Mike Jacobs, who entered this season with a .318 career on-base percentage and has somehow managed to lower that by a few points. Now they've committed to who-knows-how-many years of a shortstop with a .302 on-base percentage who can't play defense.

The Royals' last two general managers have talked a great deal about on-base percentage. What they actually do, though, is things like give up a couple of prospects for Yuniesky Betancourt.

Lately, the Royals seem close to losing Rany Jazayerli and Joe Posnanski. They lost me a long time ago, and it's because of brain-dead moves exactly like this one."

FanGraphs:

"The Royals desperately needed a shortstop. Their collective group was batting a cool .208/.234/.281 with awful defense and little in the way of upside.

[...]

Betancourt has hit .278/.299/.392 while playing most of his games in Safeco. He doesn’t hit for a lot of power, but even if you assume Safeco suppressed him a bit, he’s still not a very good hitter. He’s a below average fielder at shortstop, and the whispers – which have became a bit more than that in the Seattle press – suggest he lacks work ethic.

[...]

If adding playing time threats, benching, closed door meetings, and a team in contention didn’t snap Betancourt into focus, then what will? Even if the Mariners are picking up most of the tab,[...] it’s still a questionable gamble for Dayton Moore.

The Royals still desperately need a shortstop."

Law:

"The Royals kicked off their offseason last winter by acquiring Mike Jacobs, a player so limited in skills that acquiring him made little sense even before considering their superior in-house alternatives. Jacobs has, predictably, flopped, both at the plate and with the glove.

On Friday, the Royals topped that move with an even worse one, trading for Yuniesky Betancourt, who might very well be the worst everyday player in the majors, and actually giving up something of value in Danny Cortes, a hard-throwing pitching prospect with command and makeup issues, and Derrick Saito, who projects at least as a lefty specialist if the Mariners choose to push him up the ladder.

Betancourt does nothing well on a baseball field. He can't hit and has lost bat speed since reaching the majors. He hacks at everything he sees, and even swings at pitches thrown to other hitters. He has next to no range at short. And he never hustles on anything -- not balls hit in his direction, not ground balls he might have a chance to beat out (well, before he let himself go physically). Other than all that, he's Honus Wagner."


Edited by JFish26 (07/12/09 02:55 PM)

Top
#900478 - 07/12/09 04:15 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

Top
#900479 - 07/12/09 04:17 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




He's already played 588 major league games. One or two more won't change my opinion. Fish is right.

Top
#900480 - 07/12/09 04:26 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




He's already played 588 major league games. One or two more won't change my opinion. Fish is right.




Really not trying to change anyones opinion of him, I've already said he blows as a player. All I've really said is that this deal won't have any major consequence to the team, because it's not holding anyone back. It's not improving the team, but it didn't set us back either.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

Top
#900481 - 07/12/09 04:27 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




The problem isn't your judgment, it's Moore's. And his judgments have resulted in dismal trade after dismal trade. Honestly: have the Royals won a single trade for a major league player in the Moore era? I'm sure there's an example out there, but...jeez.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900482 - 07/12/09 04:31 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




He's already played 588 major league games. One or two more won't change my opinion. Fish is right.




Really not trying to change anyones opinion of him, I've already said he blows as a player. All I've really said is that this deal won't have any major consequence to the team, because it's not holding anyone back. It's not improving the team, but it didn't set us back either.




Sure it did. Even allowing for the possibility that neither Cortes nor Saito is ever a useful major league player, the commitment of any money and roster space to this pitiful excuse for a baseball player shows how inept this front office is. You want to talk about setbacks? This will keep the organization from seeking an actual shortstop for at least another season.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900483 - 07/12/09 04:32 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Never really bashed Cortes. His status as a prospect has more to do with his conduct off the field than on, although his conduct on the mound could use some help as well.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

Top
#900484 - 07/12/09 04:34 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




He's already played 588 major league games. One or two more won't change my opinion. Fish is right.




Really not trying to change anyones opinion of him, I've already said he blows as a player. All I've really said is that this deal won't have any major consequence to the team, because it's not holding anyone back. It's not improving the team, but it didn't set us back either.




Sure it did. Even allowing for the possibility that neither Cortes nor Saito is ever a useful major league player, the commitment of any money and roster space to this pitiful excuse for a baseball player shows how inept this front office is. You want to talk about setbacks? This will keep the organization from seeking an actual shortstop for at least another season.




I just don't see it the same way.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

Top
#900485 - 07/12/09 04:38 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
No? The Royals clearly have no idea what a sunk cost is; else, why are Jacobs and Guillen still on the roster? A year from today, when Betancourt is at .275/.295/.375, I suspect he will still be on the major league roster.

That's what I don't get about this trade; say what you will about Cortes and Saito. Regardless of their status as prospects, the Royals have just traded value for a cause that was lost the second the deal was made. This is new territory, even for the Royals: a sunk cost from day one.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900486 - 07/12/09 09:43 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
jamboslice Offline
John Brown

Registered: 07/05/09
Loc: Overland Park, KS
I realize OBP is a very good measuring stick for offensive ability but it isn't everything. Who knows, some players light switches flick on when they change teams (David Oritz anyone, even though obviously Yunel would never have that kind of impact). Give this guy a chance because we have seen the worst of the worst (T Pain Jr.) and optimistically it can only get better. We'll have this guy for 2 years and find an actual major league short stop some other way. It will be a better stop gap then T Pain Jr.
_________________________
"Digital Penetration"

Top
#900487 - 07/12/09 11:53 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
To put it mildly, your post is what's wrong with the Royals front office. Tell me how old Ortiz was when he sucked and how old he was when he was great. If TPJ's backup was Yuni, then--fine, play Yuni. But the Royals gave away real, live prospects for Yuni, who--unfortunately--sucks at baseball. And I get your point about its an improvement until we find something better. I agree. But I worry (with legitimate reason) that "until we find something better" is gonna be a long time because the Royals don't know what a sunk cost is.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900488 - 07/13/09 12:32 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jamboslice Offline
John Brown

Registered: 07/05/09
Loc: Overland Park, KS
Quote:

the Royals don't know what a sunk cost is.




That is something we can agree on. For years we stick with Mike Weeney even though he continuously gives us nothing when the whole time we should have done what Seattle just did and give him up for pennies on the dollar just to be rid of him. I say pennies on the dollar because Cortes sucks, this trade has no value for each team.
_________________________
"Digital Penetration"

Top
#900489 - 07/13/09 01:45 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Watch, Cortes is gonna suck all the way to being a useful reliever. You know, the kind we trade for Mike Jacobs and Coco Crisp.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900490 - 07/13/09 04:55 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

I realize OBP is a very good measuring stick for offensive ability but it isn't everything. Who knows, some players light switches flick on when they change teams (David Oritz anyone, even though obviously Yunel would never have that kind of impact). Give this guy a chance because we have seen the worst of the worst (T Pain Jr.) and optimistically it can only get better. We'll have this guy for 2 years and find an actual major league short stop some other way. It will be a better stop gap then T Pain Jr.




No offense, but you're drastically undervaluing OBP, just like the Royals do. It is the most important measure of offensive value in the game, and is BY FAR the most directly correlated to the number of runs a team scores.

Here's how to look at it....there is ONE thing that is limited in baseball and that's the number of outs each team is allowed to make. OBP is the measure of how often a player doesn't use up one of those outs. Or think of it in the reverse. If you had list of guys who make the greatest percentage of out in all of baseball, you'd recognize immediately that the guys who were high on that list probably aren't good offensive players, because everyone knows it's bad to make a lot of outs. Well, Yuniesky Betancourt would be extremely close to the top of that list. So would Miguel Olivo and Mike Jacobs and Jose Guillen. As a team, the Royals would be the top dog in the AL, which is obviously a bad thing. And yet they just acquired a guy who is nearly guaranteed to make them even worse.

Sorry, but I can't look at that with anything but disgust. Particularly because of this....yes, there are a lot of other offensive skills besides not making outs. And guess what? Betancourt doesn't do any of them well either.

Top
#900491 - 07/14/09 01:07 AM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
TheBashman Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 03/02/06
Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




The problem isn't your judgment, it's Moore's. And his judgments have resulted in dismal trade after dismal trade. Honestly: have the Royals won a single trade for a major league player in the Moore era? I'm sure there's an example out there, but...jeez.




you know.....at first I thought the Shealy for Affeldt/Bautista deal was a steal for the royals....then Shealy has been a AAA disapointment, while currently Affeldt has a 1.32 ERA and has posted an ERA in the 3's the last 2 years...but...not with the rockies, the team we traded him to

Macdougal for Cortes was a good deal, but not really now, considering what we actually got out of it

Bannister for Burgos deal was the only one i can think of in which after playing monday morning QB, dayton has actually won

Top
#900492 - 07/14/09 07:35 AM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
EastCoastJHawk Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/13/07
Loc: On the sofa
Quote:

Watch, Cortes is gonna suck all the way to being a useful reliever. You know, the kind we trade for Mike Jacobs and Coco Crisp.




At least Coco has a great name. He gets some bonus points for that.
_________________________
"I would not be at all shocked if Illinois is in the same league as KU in 2 years" - Gutter 3/11/09

Top
#900493 - 07/14/09 09:14 AM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: EastCoastJHawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Moore's won his share of trades for prospects. In addition to Bannister, Buckner for Callaspo comes to mind. The MacDougal trade looked great until last week.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900494 - 07/14/09 01:13 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
jamboslice Offline
John Brown

Registered: 07/05/09
Loc: Overland Park, KS
Quote:

Quote:

I realize OBP is a very good measuring stick for offensive ability but it isn't everything. Who knows, some players light switches flick on when they change teams (David Oritz anyone, even though obviously Yunel would never have that kind of impact). Give this guy a chance because we have seen the worst of the worst (T Pain Jr.) and optimistically it can only get better. We'll have this guy for 2 years and find an actual major league short stop some other way. It will be a better stop gap then T Pain Jr.




No offense, but you're drastically undervaluing OBP, just like the Royals do. It is the most important measure of offensive value in the game, and is BY FAR the most directly correlated to the number of runs a team scores.

Here's how to look at it....there is ONE thing that is limited in baseball and that's the number of outs each team is allowed to make. OBP is the measure of how often a player doesn't use up one of those outs. Or think of it in the reverse. If you had list of guys who make the greatest percentage of out in all of baseball, you'd recognize immediately that the guys who were high on that list probably aren't good offensive players, because everyone knows it's bad to make a lot of outs. Well, Yuniesky Betancourt would be extremely close to the top of that list. So would Miguel Olivo and Mike Jacobs and Jose Guillen. As a team, the Royals would be the top dog in the AL, which is obviously a bad thing. And yet they just acquired a guy who is nearly guaranteed to make them even worse.

Sorry, but I can't look at that with anything but disgust. Particularly because of this....yes, there are a lot of other offensive skills besides not making outs. And guess what? Betancourt doesn't do any of them well either.




I own Moneyball and have read it about 5 times dude, you're preaching to the wrong person
_________________________
"Digital Penetration"

Top
#900495 - 07/14/09 01:16 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Ah, Moneyball, the definitive, final word on objective analysis. Don't get me wrong...it's a great place to start. But the world might have changed as much since then as the book originally changed the world.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900496 - 07/14/09 03:05 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

I own Moneyball and have read it about 5 times dude, you're preaching to the wrong person




Two things:

A) If that came off as preaching, my apologies. I was fooled by the "OBP is a very good measuring stick for offensive ability, but..." comment.

B) If you've read Moneyball that many times, you should have come away with the knowledge that Betancourt is precisely the kind of player that low-budget teams shouldn't bet on. Even if he turns his career around and fulfills the wildest dreams about his supposed potential, that still won't make this a good bet by Moore. It will make it dumb f'n luck.

Top
#900497 - 07/14/09 03:09 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
And that right there is the problem. It's an organizational culture issue: decisions must NOT be judged by outcome, but by process.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900498 - 07/14/09 03:18 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

And that right there is the problem. It's an organizational culture issue: decisions must NOT be judged by outcome, but by process.




Correct. And if you've properly applied your process each time and are still getting unacceptable results, it's time to re-evaluate your process. Sadly, the Royals either don't know that or they are gathering WAY more data than most people would need before realizing that their process is broken.

Top
#900499 - 07/14/09 03:19 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
All evidence seems to suggest the Royals are gathering no data.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900500 - 07/14/09 03:26 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jnewell Offline
Crimson & Blue Blood

Registered: 08/07/08
Loc: Lawrence, KS
JFish and 1990 — Did you see this quote from Moore? I'm quoting from the KCRoyals message board, so I actually didn't hear it myself:

"The defensive statistics - I still really don't understand how some of those statistics are evaluated, I really don't. When you watch baseball games every single day, its very apparent who can play defensively and who can't."
-Dayton Moore, this morning on "The Border Patrol" on 810 WHB

Top
#900501 - 07/14/09 03:37 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jnewell]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Yeah...terrifying. Honestly, a big part of Dayton's job should be setting up and running an analysis department that churns out proprietary stuff.

Here's the best takedown of Moore's comment that I've yet seen:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/dayton-moore-and-defense

So, basically, the deal is that an analyst has been keeping track of how good defense fans think their teams' players play. As we've gotten a much better hold on how to actually quantify defense in a meaningful way, it turns out that, largely, the fans are right. So Dayton loses the "when you watch baseball every day" argument. Money quote from that post:

"The fans say Betancourt has lost defensive quality steadily since 2005 and so does UZR. Both agree the biggest jump happened between 2007 and 2008. I suppose you could say the numbers have influenced the fans a bit – we are talking about a pretty intelligent fan base with Seattle – but our version of UZR only became readily available last winter.

The fans and UZR agree that Betancourt has gotten progressively worse and is a below average shortstop, Moore and the Royals scouts don’t. Odds are, Moore and company have the least amount of data to form their opinion on Betancourt. We’ll see if Moore is right after all."
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
#900502 - 07/14/09 05:02 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jnewell]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

JFish and 1990 — Did you see this quote from Moore? I'm quoting from the KCRoyals message board, so I actually didn't hear it myself:

"The defensive statistics - I still really don't understand how some of those statistics are evaluated, I really don't. When you watch baseball games every single day, its very apparent who can play defensively and who can't."
-Dayton Moore, this morning on "The Border Patrol" on 810 WHB




Yeah, I heard it and I was disgusted. That comment means that the GM of the Royals openly admitted that he's incapable of doing part of his job. Whether he likes it or not, whether he puts much weight in them or not, Moore MUST utilize all sources of information available to him when evaluating a player's performance. That means looking at the stats AND talking to analysts who can explain them to him AND reading scouting reports AND talking to scouts first-hand AND sometimes watching the player personally. What Moore admitted yesterday is that he purposefully ignores some of those sources, and it seems that it has to be for one of these reasons:

1. He's too stupid to understand them
2. He's too impatient to have them explained to him
3. He's too convinced that they won't tell him anything he doesn't already know.

Maybe there are other options, but those are the only ones I can think of. And, frankly, if any of them are true, he deserves to be fired.

Top
#900503 - 07/14/09 05:26 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
I'm with Doolittle at the Star...Moore's a smart, smart guy. For some silly reason, however, he thinks what worked in Atlanta in the 90s has to work now. He's unwilling to play chess when everyone else has moved past checkers.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Preview