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#900480 - 07/12/09 04:26 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




He's already played 588 major league games. One or two more won't change my opinion. Fish is right.




Really not trying to change anyones opinion of him, I've already said he blows as a player. All I've really said is that this deal won't have any major consequence to the team, because it's not holding anyone back. It's not improving the team, but it didn't set us back either.
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#900481 - 07/12/09 04:27 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




The problem isn't your judgment, it's Moore's. And his judgments have resulted in dismal trade after dismal trade. Honestly: have the Royals won a single trade for a major league player in the Moore era? I'm sure there's an example out there, but...jeez.
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#900482 - 07/12/09 04:31 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




He's already played 588 major league games. One or two more won't change my opinion. Fish is right.




Really not trying to change anyones opinion of him, I've already said he blows as a player. All I've really said is that this deal won't have any major consequence to the team, because it's not holding anyone back. It's not improving the team, but it didn't set us back either.




Sure it did. Even allowing for the possibility that neither Cortes nor Saito is ever a useful major league player, the commitment of any money and roster space to this pitiful excuse for a baseball player shows how inept this front office is. You want to talk about setbacks? This will keep the organization from seeking an actual shortstop for at least another season.
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#900483 - 07/12/09 04:32 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Never really bashed Cortes. His status as a prospect has more to do with his conduct off the field than on, although his conduct on the mound could use some help as well.
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#900484 - 07/12/09 04:34 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




He's already played 588 major league games. One or two more won't change my opinion. Fish is right.




Really not trying to change anyones opinion of him, I've already said he blows as a player. All I've really said is that this deal won't have any major consequence to the team, because it's not holding anyone back. It's not improving the team, but it didn't set us back either.




Sure it did. Even allowing for the possibility that neither Cortes nor Saito is ever a useful major league player, the commitment of any money and roster space to this pitiful excuse for a baseball player shows how inept this front office is. You want to talk about setbacks? This will keep the organization from seeking an actual shortstop for at least another season.




I just don't see it the same way.
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#900485 - 07/12/09 04:38 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jammahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
No? The Royals clearly have no idea what a sunk cost is; else, why are Jacobs and Guillen still on the roster? A year from today, when Betancourt is at .275/.295/.375, I suspect he will still be on the major league roster.

That's what I don't get about this trade; say what you will about Cortes and Saito. Regardless of their status as prospects, the Royals have just traded value for a cause that was lost the second the deal was made. This is new territory, even for the Royals: a sunk cost from day one.
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#900486 - 07/12/09 09:43 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
jamboslice Offline
John Brown

Registered: 07/05/09
Loc: Overland Park, KS
I realize OBP is a very good measuring stick for offensive ability but it isn't everything. Who knows, some players light switches flick on when they change teams (David Oritz anyone, even though obviously Yunel would never have that kind of impact). Give this guy a chance because we have seen the worst of the worst (T Pain Jr.) and optimistically it can only get better. We'll have this guy for 2 years and find an actual major league short stop some other way. It will be a better stop gap then T Pain Jr.
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#900487 - 07/12/09 11:53 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
To put it mildly, your post is what's wrong with the Royals front office. Tell me how old Ortiz was when he sucked and how old he was when he was great. If TPJ's backup was Yuni, then--fine, play Yuni. But the Royals gave away real, live prospects for Yuni, who--unfortunately--sucks at baseball. And I get your point about its an improvement until we find something better. I agree. But I worry (with legitimate reason) that "until we find something better" is gonna be a long time because the Royals don't know what a sunk cost is.
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#900488 - 07/13/09 12:32 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
jamboslice Offline
John Brown

Registered: 07/05/09
Loc: Overland Park, KS
Quote:

the Royals don't know what a sunk cost is.




That is something we can agree on. For years we stick with Mike Weeney even though he continuously gives us nothing when the whole time we should have done what Seattle just did and give him up for pennies on the dollar just to be rid of him. I say pennies on the dollar because Cortes sucks, this trade has no value for each team.
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#900489 - 07/13/09 01:45 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Watch, Cortes is gonna suck all the way to being a useful reliever. You know, the kind we trade for Mike Jacobs and Coco Crisp.
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#900490 - 07/13/09 04:55 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: jamboslice]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

I realize OBP is a very good measuring stick for offensive ability but it isn't everything. Who knows, some players light switches flick on when they change teams (David Oritz anyone, even though obviously Yunel would never have that kind of impact). Give this guy a chance because we have seen the worst of the worst (T Pain Jr.) and optimistically it can only get better. We'll have this guy for 2 years and find an actual major league short stop some other way. It will be a better stop gap then T Pain Jr.




No offense, but you're drastically undervaluing OBP, just like the Royals do. It is the most important measure of offensive value in the game, and is BY FAR the most directly correlated to the number of runs a team scores.

Here's how to look at it....there is ONE thing that is limited in baseball and that's the number of outs each team is allowed to make. OBP is the measure of how often a player doesn't use up one of those outs. Or think of it in the reverse. If you had list of guys who make the greatest percentage of out in all of baseball, you'd recognize immediately that the guys who were high on that list probably aren't good offensive players, because everyone knows it's bad to make a lot of outs. Well, Yuniesky Betancourt would be extremely close to the top of that list. So would Miguel Olivo and Mike Jacobs and Jose Guillen. As a team, the Royals would be the top dog in the AL, which is obviously a bad thing. And yet they just acquired a guy who is nearly guaranteed to make them even worse.

Sorry, but I can't look at that with anything but disgust. Particularly because of this....yes, there are a lot of other offensive skills besides not making outs. And guess what? Betancourt doesn't do any of them well either.

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#900491 - 07/14/09 01:07 AM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
TheBashman Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 03/02/06
Quote:

Quote:

I'll wait till he plays a game or two before I make any real judgements.




The problem isn't your judgment, it's Moore's. And his judgments have resulted in dismal trade after dismal trade. Honestly: have the Royals won a single trade for a major league player in the Moore era? I'm sure there's an example out there, but...jeez.




you know.....at first I thought the Shealy for Affeldt/Bautista deal was a steal for the royals....then Shealy has been a AAA disapointment, while currently Affeldt has a 1.32 ERA and has posted an ERA in the 3's the last 2 years...but...not with the rockies, the team we traded him to

Macdougal for Cortes was a good deal, but not really now, considering what we actually got out of it

Bannister for Burgos deal was the only one i can think of in which after playing monday morning QB, dayton has actually won

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#900492 - 07/14/09 07:35 AM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: JFish26]
EastCoastJHawk Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/13/07
Loc: On the sofa
Quote:

Watch, Cortes is gonna suck all the way to being a useful reliever. You know, the kind we trade for Mike Jacobs and Coco Crisp.




At least Coco has a great name. He gets some bonus points for that.
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#900493 - 07/14/09 09:14 AM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: EastCoastJHawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Moore's won his share of trades for prospects. In addition to Bannister, Buckner for Callaspo comes to mind. The MacDougal trade looked great until last week.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

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#900494 - 07/14/09 01:13 PM Re: Royals get SS Yuniesky Betancourt from Seattle [Re: Hawk1990]
jamboslice Offline
John Brown

Registered: 07/05/09
Loc: Overland Park, KS
Quote:

Quote:

I realize OBP is a very good measuring stick for offensive ability but it isn't everything. Who knows, some players light switches flick on when they change teams (David Oritz anyone, even though obviously Yunel would never have that kind of impact). Give this guy a chance because we have seen the worst of the worst (T Pain Jr.) and optimistically it can only get better. We'll have this guy for 2 years and find an actual major league short stop some other way. It will be a better stop gap then T Pain Jr.




No offense, but you're drastically undervaluing OBP, just like the Royals do. It is the most important measure of offensive value in the game, and is BY FAR the most directly correlated to the number of runs a team scores.

Here's how to look at it....there is ONE thing that is limited in baseball and that's the number of outs each team is allowed to make. OBP is the measure of how often a player doesn't use up one of those outs. Or think of it in the reverse. If you had list of guys who make the greatest percentage of out in all of baseball, you'd recognize immediately that the guys who were high on that list probably aren't good offensive players, because everyone knows it's bad to make a lot of outs. Well, Yuniesky Betancourt would be extremely close to the top of that list. So would Miguel Olivo and Mike Jacobs and Jose Guillen. As a team, the Royals would be the top dog in the AL, which is obviously a bad thing. And yet they just acquired a guy who is nearly guaranteed to make them even worse.

Sorry, but I can't look at that with anything but disgust. Particularly because of this....yes, there are a lot of other offensive skills besides not making outs. And guess what? Betancourt doesn't do any of them well either.




I own Moneyball and have read it about 5 times dude, you're preaching to the wrong person
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