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#890788 - 06/28/09 10:07 PM So, Report Card Time
EastCoastJHawk Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/13/07
Loc: On the sofa
While not the halfway point, close enough and this board is dead usually so it'll hang around the front page a couple of weeks:

List your favorite team or other teams you like (Fish)....hell do it for any of the teams if you want and give them their midseason grades:

Royals: D+.

At this pace, a 70 win season, making it 14 of 15 years under .500 and while there were injuries, what's more disturbing IMO the everyday line-up seems to regressed, but I didn't watch them near as much last year. W-L record will be a step back, again at current pace. Pitching has been pretty good and of course one in particular has been awesome.

I'm with Fish, I was too soft on GMDM in the past, it's time to part ways at the end of the season. Out of his trades and FA signings, the only one I can think of that helped the Royals was Meche.
_________________________
"I would not be at all shocked if Illinois is in the same league as KU in 2 years" - Gutter 3/11/09

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#890789 - 06/28/09 10:19 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: EastCoastJHawk]
TheMiracles Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 11/11/07
C to C-. Injuries have hurt this team.
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The Fab 2 Douches': Tu_Nidor, Portnoy2

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#890790 - 06/28/09 11:57 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: TheMiracles]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
On the season alone, C. This is exactly as good as this team should be, factoring in the Gordon and Soria injuries.

As far as including the offseason...F-triple-minus. The good start was an illusion; this team was not built to score enough runs to win with any consistency. The failures of this team aren't happening on the field. They happened long ago in the front office.

As far as my other teams...hard to call the Dodgers anything but an A+. Twins are sitting at the B level.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

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#890791 - 06/29/09 01:32 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: JFish26]
abc123 Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 09/26/07
JFish and/or East,
I don't completely agree with you two on DM. I haven't been thrilled with his trades and free agent signings, but why fire a GM after three years?

It was well established when he took the job in '06 that the farm system was just absolutely empty, one of the worst in the majors (if not the worst). It takes time to rebuild that. This isnt a quick fix like bball or fball possibly can be. In bball, you only carry half the guys vs baseball and there's relatively no farm system to speak of (NBDL is differently from AAA, AA, High/Low A, rookie ball). In fball, you play a schedule based on how you finished. Good records from last year vs good records and bad records vs other bad ones. I remember once hearing (can't remember from where) that a 6-10 and 10-6 are almost the same.

When Moore took over, we had the worst team in the majors. We were 13-38 the day we fired Baird. And like I said earlier, we also had what was considered the worst farm system in the majors. On top of that we have a penny-pinching owner in a small market where no big time FA wants to come. What exactly was Moore suppose to do? Wave a magic wand, sprinkle some pixy dust and suddenly the Royals become relevant?

No, that's not how it works. Now, the Gathright, Crisp, and Jacobs trades and Guillen signings dont look good and prolly never will, but that's not where/when we were going to succeed. We need homegrown talent, players we drafted and breed for the majors.

The last couple drafts have at least shown a desire. Moustakas was the best HS hitter, Melville (4th round pick) was the best HS arm, Montogomery (2nd round) was a highly ranked LHP HS, Hosmer was the best HS power bat, Crow was the 9th overall pick last yr, Myers (3rd) was a guy we were rumored to be considering in the 1st, and Dwyer (4th) was a draft eligible 21 year old ace from Clemson.

Moore's started where it matters the most in trying to rebuild our farm system.

In conclusion, Moore took over the worst MLB team, worst farm system, cheapest owner, and a small market team.

What was/is he supposed to do? I just want to hear what your guys realistic goals were when Moore took over on May 31, 2006. Central Champs last year, this year? What?

AND, exactly who would you choose as his successor? Moore turned down the Arizona job and pulled himself out of the Red Sox job. Who's gonna come to KC and have a better chance of putting a winner on the field?

This year hasn't been what we anticipated (more like hoped), but it's not worth Moore's job and having to start over again.

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#890792 - 06/29/09 08:37 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: abc123]
larryb Offline
Gutter

Registered: 05/02/07
Loc: Work
Cubs D+

Pale Hose C-

Both teams not playing nearly as well as they should be playing - on paper. JUNK!
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#890793 - 06/29/09 09:01 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: abc123]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

JFish and/or East,
I don't completely agree with you two on DM. I haven't been thrilled with his trades and free agent signings, but why fire a GM after three years?

Because, as you've noticed, trades and free agent signings are about 2/3 of his job. He's bad at this. But go on.

It was well established when he took the job in '06 that the farm system was just absolutely empty, one of the worst in the majors (if not the worst). It takes time to rebuild that. This isnt a quick fix like bball or fball possibly can be. In bball, you only carry half the guys vs baseball and there's relatively no farm system to speak of (NBDL is differently from AAA, AA, High/Low A, rookie ball). In fball, you play a schedule based on how you finished. Good records from last year vs good records and bad records vs other bad ones. I remember once hearing (can't remember from where) that a 6-10 and 10-6 are almost the same.

Well...neat, but...relevance?

When Moore took over, we had the worst team in the majors. We were 13-38 the day we fired Baird. And like I said earlier, we also had what was considered the worst farm system in the majors. On top of that we have a penny-pinching owner in a small market where no big time FA wants to come. What exactly was Moore suppose to do? Wave a magic wand, sprinkle some pixy dust and suddenly the Royals become relevant?

Well, I mean, in the way baseball geeks like me view good general managing, yes. It is magic (of sorts).

No, that's not how it works. Now, the Gathright, Crisp, and Jacobs trades and Guillen signings dont look good and prolly never will, but that's not where/when we were going to succeed. We need homegrown talent, players we drafted and breed for the majors.

So why waste the resources and roster spots on those players? I fully agree that, with respect to Guillen and Jacobs, those particular players aren't going to be part of the solution. But Dayton could have signed, say, Dunn and Hudson for the same cost. Now, in baseball, I'll give you that hindsight is 20/20. But don't you try to find a GM who will hit more than he misses on these things? Isn't that one important way to develop an edge over better-funded teams? I know I'm not crazy here.

But--to your homegrown talent.


The last couple drafts have at least shown a desire. Moustakas was the best HS hitter, Melville (4th round pick) was the best HS arm, Montogomery (2nd round) was a highly ranked LHP HS, Hosmer was the best HS power bat, Crow was the 9th overall pick last yr, Myers (3rd) was a guy we were rumored to be considering in the 1st, and Dwyer (4th) was a draft eligible 21 year old ace from Clemson.

Moore's started where it matters the most in trying to rebuild our farm system.

I'm definitely happy with what Dayton has done in the draft. But, last I checked, his signees aren't released if we fire Moore. The window for this team opens soon, and don't you want a guy competent when it comes to moves at the major league level? I do. And that's not Dayton.

In conclusion, Moore took over the worst MLB team, worst farm system, cheapest owner, and a small market team.

We have the fewest wins in the second-worst division in baseball. We trot out a lineup of has-beens and never-wasses. What has changed?

What was/is he supposed to do? I just want to hear what your guys realistic goals were when Moore took over on May 31, 2006. Central Champs last year, this year? What?

I could stomach the kind of record we've got if it was the result of improving in the long run, but it's not. Jacobs, Bloomquist, Guillen, Olivo...maybe DeJesus and Teahen. None of these guys will start when this team is ready to contend. Every day that passes with Jacobs in the lineup and Ka'aihue in Omaha is another failure. Dayton Moore is, at best, an average general manager. That might cut it if you've got money to blow, but we don't. To succeed in a small market, you can't be average--you have to be great. Dayton is not.

AND, exactly who would you choose as his successor? Moore turned down the Arizona job and pulled himself out of the Red Sox job. Who's gonna come to KC and have a better chance of putting a winner on the field?

Well, I think the search would start (and hopefully end) with Kim Ng.

This year hasn't been what we anticipated (more like hoped), but it's not worth Moore's job and having to start over again.

Precisely! Which is why you don't start over again. The farm system is somewhat rejuvenated. That's good. Let it be someone else's asset. Or else Dayton will fvck it up at the major league level.


_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

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#890794 - 06/29/09 09:08 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: JFish26]
EastCoastJHawk Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/13/07
Loc: On the sofa
Quote:

On the season alone, C. This is exactly as good as this team should be, factoring in the Gordon and Soria injuries.

As far as including the offseason...F-triple-minus. The good start was an illusion; this team was not built to score enough runs to win with any consistency. The failures of this team aren't happening on the field. They happened long ago in the front office.





Sorry, the two go hand-in-hand.

The offseason failures is what is a leading contribution to be 10 games under .500 by July 1st.

JMO.

And to the other poster - 3 years is enough to fire Moore when it's one mistake after another IMO.
_________________________
"I would not be at all shocked if Illinois is in the same league as KU in 2 years" - Gutter 3/11/09

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#890795 - 06/29/09 12:32 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: JFish26]
abc123 Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 09/26/07
Quote:

Quote:

JFish and/or East,
I don't completely agree with you two on DM. I haven't been thrilled with his trades and free agent signings, but why fire a GM after three years?

Because, as you've noticed, trades and free agent signings are about 2/3 of his job. He's bad at this. But go on.

It was well established when he took the job in '06 that the farm system was just absolutely empty, one of the worst in the majors (if not the worst). It takes time to rebuild that. This isnt a quick fix like bball or fball possibly can be. In bball, you only carry half the guys vs baseball and there's relatively no farm system to speak of (NBDL is differently from AAA, AA, High/Low A, rookie ball). In fball, you play a schedule based on how you finished. Good records from last year vs good records and bad records vs other bad ones. I remember once hearing (can't remember from where) that a 6-10 and 10-6 are almost the same.

Well...neat, but...relevance?

When Moore took over, we had the worst team in the majors. We were 13-38 the day we fired Baird. And like I said earlier, we also had what was considered the worst farm system in the majors. On top of that we have a penny-pinching owner in a small market where no big time FA wants to come. What exactly was Moore suppose to do? Wave a magic wand, sprinkle some pixy dust and suddenly the Royals become relevant?

Well, I mean, in the way baseball geeks like me view good general managing, yes. It is magic (of sorts).

No, that's not how it works. Now, the Gathright, Crisp, and Jacobs trades and Guillen signings dont look good and prolly never will, but that's not where/when we were going to succeed. We need homegrown talent, players we drafted and breed for the majors.

So why waste the resources and roster spots on those players? I fully agree that, with respect to Guillen and Jacobs, those particular players aren't going to be part of the solution. But Dayton could have signed, say, Dunn and Hudson for the same cost. Now, in baseball, I'll give you that hindsight is 20/20. But don't you try to find a GM who will hit more than he misses on these things? Isn't that one important way to develop an edge over better-funded teams? I know I'm not crazy here.

But--to your homegrown talent.


The last couple drafts have at least shown a desire. Moustakas was the best HS hitter, Melville (4th round pick) was the best HS arm, Montogomery (2nd round) was a highly ranked LHP HS, Hosmer was the best HS power bat, Crow was the 9th overall pick last yr, Myers (3rd) was a guy we were rumored to be considering in the 1st, and Dwyer (4th) was a draft eligible 21 year old ace from Clemson.

Moore's started where it matters the most in trying to rebuild our farm system.

I'm definitely happy with what Dayton has done in the draft. But, last I checked, his signees aren't released if we fire Moore. The window for this team opens soon, and don't you want a guy competent when it comes to moves at the major league level? I do. And that's not Dayton.

In conclusion, Moore took over the worst MLB team, worst farm system, cheapest owner, and a small market team.

We have the fewest wins in the second-worst division in baseball. We trot out a lineup of has-beens and never-wasses. What has changed?

What was/is he supposed to do? I just want to hear what your guys realistic goals were when Moore took over on May 31, 2006. Central Champs last year, this year? What?

I could stomach the kind of record we've got if it was the result of improving in the long run, but it's not. Jacobs, Bloomquist, Guillen, Olivo...maybe DeJesus and Teahen. None of these guys will start when this team is ready to contend. Every day that passes with Jacobs in the lineup and Ka'aihue in Omaha is another failure. Dayton Moore is, at best, an average general manager. That might cut it if you've got money to blow, but we don't. To succeed in a small market, you can't be average--you have to be great. Dayton is not.

AND, exactly who would you choose as his successor? Moore turned down the Arizona job and pulled himself out of the Red Sox job. Who's gonna come to KC and have a better chance of putting a winner on the field?

Well, I think the search would start (and hopefully end) with Kim Ng.

This year hasn't been what we anticipated (more like hoped), but it's not worth Moore's job and having to start over again.

Precisely! Which is why you don't start over again. The farm system is somewhat rejuvenated. That's good. Let it be someone else's asset. Or else Dayton will fvck it up at the major league level.








I don't really disagree with any of your points. I have been equally upset with the number of misses Moore has had so far. I just think he deserves time. The Kansas City Royals were never going to be a quick fix. never.

Moore has in his first three years been very average as our GM. But remember we had Baird SIX years before he got the ax. If things don't improve by the end of 2010, then Moore's job should be in jeopardy.

But he's somehow changed the culture at least of the Royals. It was never more apparent than when Greinke signed his extension. He said (like only Zack can) in previous years he wouldn't have even considered an extension, but saw enough progess and promise that he thought we were close to contending. And that seems to be what the whole team believes. At least we can a confident bunch.

Injuries have really derailed this season. Crisp was projected to lead off for us, Gordan batted 5th and could have forced Jacobs to 7th (not a bad place for his skill set), Waetcher and Tejeda were to be reliable in middle relief (instead of Colon).

There's been too many injuries to justify a firing of Moore. He deserves at least one more year.

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#890796 - 06/29/09 12:51 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: abc123]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
But why? General principles of decency and fairness don't do it for me.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

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#890797 - 06/29/09 12:59 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: JFish26]
abc123 Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 09/26/07
It's not about fairness, it's about giving a guy a chance to do his job, That's it. IMO, 3 yrs isn't enough time. For you, it apparently is. It looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I know one thing we both can agree on: the Royals to succeed

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#890798 - 06/29/09 01:52 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: abc123]
Bayer Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 12/10/07
Loc: Atlanta/Auburn
Braves B-

Our record sucks, but they have made great moves. McClouth is a really good player and Hanson has the potencial to be special. Starters are great, but lineup just has no firepower.

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#890799 - 06/29/09 07:08 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: EastCoastJHawk]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Incomplete.
In order for the Royals to have been successful, they needed the perfect storm, meaning no injuries.
The Royals are exactly where they are, maybe even a little better than I would have guessed had they gone into the season with their current lineup being the one they wanted to start with.
What team could survive without it's starting third baseman, SS, CF, and closer?
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

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#890800 - 06/29/09 09:48 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: EastCoastJHawk]
georgiahawk Offline
John Brown

Registered: 08/05/05
Quote:

Out of his trades and FA signings, the only one I can think of that helped the Royals was Meche.




Meche aquisition sucked balls. Meche sucks balls. Highway robbery at 11MM per year.


Edited by georgiahawk (06/29/09 09:51 PM)
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#890801 - 06/29/09 09:56 PM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: georgiahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

Quote:

Out of his trades and FA signings, the only one I can think of that helped the Royals was Meche.




Meche aquisition sucked balls. Meche sucks balls. Highway robbery at 11MM per year.




For what it's worth, he's provided $17.2MM and $21.6MM of value in his two years in KC. He's already at $9.9MM this year.

Return on the Meche investment is not a problem.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1089&position=P
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

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#890802 - 06/30/09 06:40 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: georgiahawk]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Not that I think he is a great player, or even a player that will be on the team long term, but we would be totally hosed without Olivo this year. I think you could consider him a worthwhile f/a pickup by DM.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

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#890803 - 06/30/09 07:35 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: JFish26]
georgiahawk Offline
John Brown

Registered: 08/05/05
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Out of his trades and FA signings, the only one I can think of that helped the Royals was Meche.




Meche aquisition sucked balls. Meche sucks balls. Highway robbery at 11MM per year.




For what it's worth, he's provided $17.2MM and $21.6MM of value in his two years in KC. He's already at $9.9MM this year.

Return on the Meche investment is not a problem.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1089&position=P




It seems to me that the Royals can spend $55MM over 5 years in much better fashion than Meche. If you don't believe me, ask GM's around the league. Meche is content with his bank account; cares very little about posting W's - - as evidenced by his best year being 14 wins as our ace. He's a 3rd starter at best on an average team.

To your point on the tiered contract, they should have back-loaded it. A guy like Meche isn't worth crap after he gets paid. What's his problem now? Tired arm?
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#890804 - 06/30/09 09:32 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: georgiahawk]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

It seems to me that the Royals can spend $55MM over 5 years in much better fashion than Meche. If you don't believe me, ask GM's around the league. Meche is content with his bank account; cares very little about posting W's - - as evidenced by his best year being 14 wins as our ace. He's a 3rd starter at best on an average team.

To your point on the tiered contract, they should have back-loaded it. A guy like Meche isn't worth crap after he gets paid. What's his problem now? Tired arm?




Are you just trying to bait me at this point?

Wins and losses are totally, completely, 100% irrelevant as to evaluating a pitcher's performance. Let's play a game...spot the critical part of your sentence:

"as evidenced by his best year being 14 wins on our team"

Is it:

A: "his best year"
B: "14 wins"
C: "on our team"

The answer, of course, is C. It's the freaking Royals! Of course starting pitchers aren't going to win many games! Donny Z. is having one of the greatest years of a starting pitcher in the last two decades and he'll struggle to win 20 games on this partial-birth abortion of a baseball team.

And, even assuming what you say is true: he does only care about his bank account. Fine! If that makes him a very good pitcher (which he is), I could care less what motivates him. Indeed, money is a wonderful thing to motivate a player, especially Meche. Why? First, he'll be more than halfway through his contract after this season...he's gotta chase another one! And second, because--and think through this one--what would happen if a Kansas City Royals player was motivated by winning? Terrible, unspeakable things, that's what.

And people are very quick to throw around terms like "a 3rd starter on an average team." This is just wrong. The Marlins are .500, and their third-best pitcher is something called Ricky Nolasco. The Mets are a game below .500 and their third-best starter is the ghost of Livan Hernandez. The Twins are .500 and their third-best starter is restauranteur (I assume) Glen Perkins.

Meche is a fairly outstanding pitcher...definitely a guy who can start two games in a World Series. And, while I can't just pick up the phone and talk to GM's, I'm fairly certain most of them would take Meche's contract in a heartbeat. Oliver Perez is making $13MM. Carlos Silva is making $12MM. Tim Hudson is making $13MM. Derek Lowe is in the first year of a 4-year, $60MM deal. Carlos Zambrano is making $17.75MM. Ryan Dempster is in the first year of a 4-year, $52MM deal. Ted Lilly is making $12MM. Jason Schmidt is making $12MM.

That's just a sampling. Meche is probably better than every single one of those guys right now. As far as the class of pitchers making Meche money, he's near the top. That makes him a terrific signing. Thank GOD he's motivated by money. If he was motivated by winning, he never would have signed here.

And, yeah...the tired arm thing? That'll happen when you have a nightmarishly bad training staff.

For as harsh as I am on Dayton Moore's moves at the major league level, Meche is a bright spot. He's an excellent pitcher happy to be in Kansas City who is a relative bargain for the next two-and-a-half seasons.
_________________________
2013-14 -- One for the other thumb.

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#890805 - 06/30/09 09:44 AM Re: So, Report Card Time [Re: JFish26]
georgiahawk Offline
John Brown

Registered: 08/05/05
Quote:


Are you just trying to bait me at this point?






ding, ding, ding!
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