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#586036 - 09/11/08 12:35 AM Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
That's just to get your attention (though I believe it).
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#586037 - 09/11/08 01:29 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
Merg311 Offline
Crimson & Blue Blood

Registered: 08/01/06
Loc: Hays, KS
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#586038 - 09/11/08 09:22 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
Quote:

That's just to get your attention (though I believe it).




I am the biggest Jeter detractor on the board and have fought this fight many times BUT I have to (and I can't believe I am doing this) defend Jeter. He is nowhere near FAR below average. He is slightly above average defensively with a flair for the dramatic. He is weak in the power catagory but he is
as profesional hitter as you can find in terms of balls and strikes and taking what is given to him. He is also one of the best clutch hitters ever. (GAWD it hurts to say that) and he is not even the best SS on his team but he is above average.
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#586039 - 09/11/08 09:30 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: jayhwk01]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

Quote:

That's just to get your attention (though I believe it).




I am the biggest Jeter detractor on the board and have fought this fight many times BUT I have to (and I can't believe I am doing this) defend Jeter. He is nowhere near FAR below average. He is slightly above average defensively with a flair for the dramatic. He is weak in the power catagory but he is
as profesional hitter as you can find in terms of balls and strikes and taking what is given to him. He is also one of the best clutch hitters ever. (GAWD it hurts to say that) and he is not even the best SS on his team but he is above average.




Well, first of all, Jeter has been a bad defensive shortstop for many years. His 'flair for the dramatic' keeps this from public perception. He won the 2nd least defensible gold glove ever. He is hurting the Yankees with his play at a critical defensive position. He will have to be moved off the position soon.

Secondly, there is no such thing as clutch hitting. It's easily proven to not exist.

He definitely used to have good plate discipline and excellent power for a SS. However, he's a shell of his former self and perhaps the most overrated athlete in American sports.
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#586040 - 09/11/08 09:50 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
He is overrated...you will get no argument from me. Without that lineup and NY media he would be average AT BEST in terms of popularity.

He has never had good power at SS...not even for a SS. Average at best but mostly below average.

He may have to be moved soon. True. This does not mean he was not solid for years. Players get old....Cal, Brett...they all do.

No such thing as clutch hitting? Whatever. Stats don't lie. In big games, with runners on he was one of the best.
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#586041 - 09/11/08 09:55 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: jayhwk01]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
He had tremendous power for a shortstop. From 1998-2007, he had just one year with a SLG below .450. That's awesome from a high-OBP player at a premium defensive position.

And you're correct--stats don't lie. There is no meaningful existence of clutch hitting. Players are what they are.
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#586042 - 09/11/08 10:05 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
I was thinking specifically HR power not SLG % when I say below average power.

Secondly, you are flat wrong about clutch hitting. That is why they keep stats about two out hits, hits with men in scoring position, and walk off hits. The stats show he was one of the best. Players are not always what they normally are. A-Rod by every statistical measure is 10 times the hitter that Jeter ever was...except in the playoffs or for game winning/tying opportunities. You seriously telling me as a mgr in that scenario you are going with the Players are who they are theory and batting A-Rod over Jeter? I don't think so.
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#586043 - 09/11/08 10:19 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
Quote:

He had tremendous power for a shortstop. From 1998-2007, he had just one year with a SLG below .450. That's awesome from a high-OBP player at a premium defensive position.

And you're correct--stats don't lie. There is no meaningful existence of clutch hitting. Players are what they are.





Strange News
Study Reveals Baseball's Great Clutch Hitters

By LiveScience Staff

A baseball fan and statistics buff has proven that clutch hitters really do exist, putting statistics behind the obvious.

The new study, by math and economics student Elan Fuld of the University of Pennsylvania, was announced by the university Thursday.

Fuld defined a clutch hitter as one who hits better at more important moments. He studied stats on 1,075 Major League players in the 1974-1992 seasons.

Factors determining a clutch hit: how many bases were occupied, the score at the time, the inning, and how many outs. He also counted sacrifice flies, in which a runner scores but no hit is recorded.

"What I found was that, when I included sacrifice flys in the analysis, there was overwhelming evidence that there were clutch hitters," Fuld said.
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#586044 - 09/11/08 10:42 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: jayhwk01]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

Quote:

He had tremendous power for a shortstop. From 1998-2007, he had just one year with a SLG below .450. That's awesome from a high-OBP player at a premium defensive position.

And you're correct--stats don't lie. There is no meaningful existence of clutch hitting. Players are what they are.





Strange News
Study Reveals Baseball's Great Clutch Hitters

By LiveScience Staff

A baseball fan and statistics buff has proven that clutch hitters really do exist, putting statistics behind the obvious.

The new study, by math and economics student Elan Fuld of the University of Pennsylvania, was announced by the university Thursday.

Fuld defined a clutch hitter as one who hits better at more important moments. He studied stats on 1,075 Major League players in the 1974-1992 seasons.

Factors determining a clutch hit: how many bases were occupied, the score at the time, the inning, and how many outs. He also counted sacrifice flies, in which a runner scores but no hit is recorded.

"What I found was that, when I included sacrifice flys in the analysis, there was overwhelming evidence that there were clutch hitters," Fuld said.




That is dumb logic...sacrifice flies are mostly accidental. Of course a player picks up more RBIs when there are runners on third--talk about a stat that just doesn't matter.

"over a large enough sample, players will hit in given situations pretty much as they do overall. "

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656
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#586045 - 09/11/08 10:46 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
Math is now dumb logic....check.
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#586046 - 09/11/08 10:49 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: jayhwk01]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
The math isn't dumb. The application is.
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#586047 - 09/11/08 10:52 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
Please offer your variation. And Still want to know...Jeter vs A-rod bottom of the ninth two men on and tell me again how some hitters are not clutch compared to others.
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#586048 - 09/11/08 11:01 AM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: jayhwk01]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

Please offer your variation. And Still want to know...Jeter vs A-rod bottom of the ninth two men on and tell me again how some hitters are not clutch compared to others.




I will take Alex Rodriguez in that (and every other) situation over Jeter. Clutch hitting just does not exist. Jeter's had some phenomenal performances in clutch situations, but his overall numbers are no different in such situations than they are overall. As a rule:

"The correlation between past and current clutch performance is .01, with a standard deviation of .07. In other words, there isn't a significant ability in clutch hitting; if there were, the same players would be good clutch hitters every year."

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/grabiner/fullclutch.html

This is a pebble in the mountain of evidence that there exists no significant improvement (by any player) to hit in 'clutch' situations. Yes, there is statistical variance, but given a large enough sample size, players will perform the same in clutch situations as they will in normal ones.
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#586049 - 09/11/08 12:30 PM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: JFish26]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
A-Rod over Jeter in that situation huh...wow.
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#586050 - 09/11/08 01:53 PM Re: Derek Jeter is a well-below average shortstop [Re: jayhwk01]
JFish26 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/17/05
Loc: KC, MO
Quote:

A-Rod over Jeter in that situation huh...wow.




Just because a coin comes up heads three times in a row doesn't mean it's time to bet on tails.
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