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#2028624 - 03/05/18 05:25 PM It's Really Mind Boggling!
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 01/18/08
A remake of a year old post of mine with some updates, revisions and additions:

Congratulations on a tremendously great winning streak–14 Conference Championships in a row!!!! But I’m afraid some KU fans don’t understand just how unbelievable or "How Really Mind Boggling" our streak is or fully appreciate it.

The Currant List of Streaks:
14 KU 2005 - present (can still increase)
13 UCLA 1967 - 79
12 Gonzaga 2001 - 11
10 UCLA 1983 - 92
10 UConn 1951 - 60
9 Idaho State 1952 - 61
9 UK 1944 - 52

With the exception of Gonzaga the other streaks started 35 years or longer ago, most 50 years or longer ago, one 74 years ago. Basketball across the many universities and conferences has greatly strengthened and equalized during this time period, making such streaks less and less probable.

During this 14 win streak, KU has twice replaced the starting five. In 2005-06 three freshman were part of the starting five. This year they basically played seven rotation players, three were upper classmen, three basically new and one sub a two year man. They’ve shared the championship four times. There’s other factors involved that made it unlikely the streak would reach # 14. Through these 14 years the Big 12 has been considered a strong basketball conference and sometimes the top conference. Gonzaga won their 12 in an arguably weaker conference than the Big 12, but certainly a considerably difficult accomplishment in this day and age. This is also true of UCLA’s 13 streak.

I know some argue that conference championships pale in light of national NCAA championships. But such championships come much easier. In the 79-year history of the NCAA the following has happened:

34 schools have won at least one NCAA championships.
15 schools have won at least two NCAA championships.
8 schools have won at three or more NCAA championships.

But only ONE school has won 14 straight conference championships during the same 79 years and a great number of schools have had 95 - 120 years available to do it. A conference championship is easier to win than a NCAA championship, but to win multiple conference champions straight is extremely difficult. This is why I so strongly believe that 14 straight championships is a great accomplishment! It is a record that is very unlikely to ever be broken, unless we do it the next year, which seems to be a good possibility with the team we’ll have.

Sports writer Eddie Karon said after we won our 11th in a row: “It’s hard to make an exact comparison to other situations, but I will restate what I wrote on Twitter after the Jayhawks finished their scintillating comeback against West Virginia to clinch the outright Big 12 title: This streak, 11 years in a row and counting, is one of the most impressive in all of sports. That’s right, not just college hoops. I’m talking all of sports.”

ESPN’s Jay Bilas, when asked about KU’s 11 straight conference titles . . . called it “one of the great accomplishments in the history of college basketball.”

Seth Greenberg, Bilas’ colleague at ESPN said, “To be that consistent, to be that good, to be the team — the red-letter game, the biggest game on everyone’s schedule — and have that consistency, it’s mind-boggling. It’s phenomenal,” Greenberg said. “It’s even hard to fathom.”

Another sports writer, Joe Posnanski, said last year of our 12th in a row: “Twelve regular season conference championships in a row is an achievement so odd and mind-blowing that nobody quite knows what to make of it.”

Statistician Ken Pomeroy said, “Even if the Jayhawks are a heavy favorite, percentages shouldn’t be more than about 75 percent for one team to win a 10-team league title because there are so many unknown variables. There are other years, when the conference is strong, that KU being the favorite might only mean it has a 40 or 50 percent chance of taking the crown.” This simply means that the best team in a conference has a 25 - 60 percent chance of not winning in any given year. Our Jayhawks have beat those odds 14 years in a row, even when they may not have been the best team, which makes their streak of 14 really beating the odds. Phenomenal is all I can say!

AP sports writer, Dave Skretta, said recently before KU won its 13th, “The Kansas streak is hard to put into perspective because it has few comparisons. The two most recent schools to come close have been UNLV, which had a 10-year run snapped in 1992, and Gonzaga, which won 11 straight from 2001-11. But the Runnin' Rebels played in the Big West in a far different era, while the Bulldogs have dominated the West Coast Conference. Neither league would be confused for the Big 12, either in talent or depth. Part of what makes Kansas' streak so incredible is that sustained excellence is harder today than ever before, and certainly harder than when UCLA was riding its streak.”

That's what they said after numbers 11 and 12 were won. Now that number 14 has been accomplished, I wonder what sports writers will have to say. Yes, I’m sure that it will be a mixed bag, but no one can say that it was an easy road and meaningless, and yes, most all of them will concur that, “it’s really mind boggling.”

Am I making light of NCAA national championships? By no means. I desire them as much as the next person. Should we have more than we do? Certainly. We’ve let a few slip through our hands when we shouldn’t have. On the other hand, maybe we won one or two we weren’t suppose to. But that’s what often happens when you are looking at single games, which is what the NCAA championship basically is, one bad game, one bad play, one bad whatever and you’re out. It’s happened to the BEST numerous times. But at other times a team gets really hot, everything falls into place, they upset higher seeds and maybe they’re even the champs. Things just happen. Note, since 1985, when the tourney went to 64 teams, there have been 17 times when only one number 1 seed made it to the Final Four and eight times when none (0) made it to the Final Four. That means in 33 years at least two number 1 seeds made it to the FF only eight times. Only once did all four 1 seeds make it and that’s the year we won one of our championships. The NCAA has not always been kind to number 1 seeds. I believe that shows a lot more parity in recent years. Winning the NCAA Tournament is all too often a six game crap shot. Winning 14 straight conference titles may have some elements of a crap shot in it, but it really takes a lot of consistency in playing good basketball for many games year after year.

Would I trade our 14 for one NCAA championship? No one can really answer that because it can’t be done. But to give my answer, if it could be done, no I wouldn’t. It would take at least three championships before I’d be willing to trade our 14. When it comes to sports, what happens, happens and you take what you get, good or bad. I’ll take the 14 and hope for and pull for another NCAA championship this year. Will it happen? Only time will tell. A hot streak or one off game will probably prove to be a deciding factor for whomever wins, or doesn’t. It wasn’t very likely that we would win our NCAA Championship in 1988 as a six seed. Now come next year, I’ll gladly take a NC in leu of # 15.

Coach Allen was a great believer in conference championships and took great pride in achieving them. He did alright as have several of our coaches. Here’s a chart on them.

Coach . . . . Seasons . CC* . . F.F* . NC*
Naismith. . . . . 9 . . . . . NA*. . NA. . .NA
Hamilton . . . 10 . . . . . . .5 . . . NA . . NA
Allen . . . . . . 39 . . . . . .24 . . . . .3 . . . . 1
Harp . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . .2 . . . . .1 . . . . 0
Owens . . . . .19 . . . . . . .6 . . . . .2 . . . . 0
Brown . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . .1 . . . . .2 . . . . 1
Williams . . . .15 . . . . . . .9 . . . . .4 . . . . 0
Self . . . . . . . 15 . . . . . .14 . . . . .2 . . . . 1
Totals . . . . .120 . . . . . .61 . . . .14 . . . . 3

*CC = Conference Championship - Applicable for 111 seasons
FF = Final Four - Applicable to Allen for 18 seasons
NC= National Championship - ditto for Allen
NA=Not Applicable

Of course Self has a stab at a FF and NC yet this year.

An interesting note, our last three coaches have won the same number of CCs in 35 years as Coach Allen did in 39 years, and that is with Self winning his last 14. Apparently Allen did take those CCs very seriously! Four of our last seven coaches won a CC at least 50% of the time.

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#2028627 - 03/05/18 07:50 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
tmcats Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 09/08/02
Loc: reservation lake, mn
yes, it can't be discounted at this point in time. amazing feat.
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Stop waving our wheat!

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#2028629 - 03/05/18 07:56 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Mind boggling perhaps...but KU just cant close the big picture deal with the consistency they should be capable of...14 F4s are legit...3-6 in the title game is not..hard..cold...facts. Might be good enough for western Kansas dirt farmers but its not good enough for me..like Ollie Twist I want more...


Edited by PHOGUSHER (03/05/18 07:59 PM)
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#2028634 - 03/05/18 10:21 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
Jaycat92 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/28/14
Loc: Nebraska
I do think that 14 straight is amazing.

Justifying it will not make this feat more fantastic. 08' and 12' were great years. Won conference title and made the title games. I don't expect us to make every Final 4. I can't really complain about the Elite 8's we have played in. I think we all know that there are two seasons. Conference season and NCAA tourney season. We have been Top 3 good nationally in the conference season for 14 straight years. We have been Final 4 good twice in those 14 years.

Honestly, we are the only Big 12 team to recruit in the top tier year after year. We should be favored to win the Big 12 each year. We should win it on talent alone each season. By no means are we over performing to win this conference.

I just think that realistically, we are doing what we should be doing each year. I think we are under performing in the NCAA tourney season with what teams we have entered into it with.

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#2028642 - 03/06/18 10:39 AM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
14 str8 is amazing. But I really thought Bill would have gotten us to more Final 4s by now. He still trails Roi by 2 in the same length of tenure at old KU. Yes he did get us the one NC but as I stated before I want more. I dont think this yrs team can do it but I hope they surprise me. Now next yrs team if Dok returns with the combination of the transfers and 3 top 30 recruits better make a Final 4....really no excuse for not being completely dominant.
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

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#2028652 - 03/06/18 12:06 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 01/18/08
[quote=PHOGUSHER]14 str8 is amazing. But I really thought Bill would have gotten us to more Final 4s by now. He still trails Roi by 2 in the same length of tenure at old KU. Yes he did get us the one NC but as I stated before I want more. I dont think this yrs team can do it but I hope they surprise me. Now next yrs team if Dok returns with the combination of the transfers and 3 top 30 recruits better make a Final 4....really no excuse for not being completely dominant. [/quotei

I'm glad that you agree with me that "14 str8 is amazing." I also agree with you that we should have made more FFs under Bill. That is also true of Roy and both should have more Championships at KU. This underscores my belief that making a FF and achieving a championship is to often a crap shot. Roy had several teams that should have done both, he never got a championship. Bill also should have achieved that more often as he had several teams that should have. But note once again the following:

Since the NCAA has gone to 64 teams, 33 years ago--
There have been 16 times that only ONE # 1 seed made it to the FF.
There have been 8 times that only TWO # 1 seeds made it to the FF.
There have been 5 times that THREE # 1 seeds made it to the FF.
There has been 1 time that all FOUR # 1 seeds made it to the FF.
There has been 3 times that NO # 1 seed made it to the FF.

There has been 20 times that a # 1 seed was crowned the champion.
There has been 5 times that a # 2 seed was crowned the champion.
There has been 4 times that a # 3 seed was crowned the champion.
There has been 1 time that a # 4 seed was crowned the champion.
There has been 3 times that a # 6, 7 or 8 seed was crowned the champion.
There has been 13 times that a # 1 seed was NOT crowned the champion.

During these 33 tourneys, there has been 132 teams of each seed. This means that 112 # 1 seeds weren't crowed the champion, 127 # 2 seeds weren't crowned, 128 # 3 seeds weren't crowned and 131 # 4 seeds weren't crowned.

So yes, a high seed, # 1 - 3, usually wins but only 61% of the time has it been a # 1 seed, but only 12% of the # 1 seeds were crowned. Not making the FF or achieving a championship is not only a Roy and Bill thing at KU, but many other coaches and schools seeded # 1 have been smitten by the partly crap shot NCAA Basketball Tournament!

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#2028672 - 03/06/18 09:12 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Crap shoot is the common excuse from the common KU fan....let me make it simple....I dont mind a F4 loss Kentucky...Maryland....Syracuse....or even an Elite 8 loss to Nova....but I do mind choke NCAA tournament losses to VCU...Oregon...UNI...etc. ..No excuse for those failures. Throw all your dumb comparison stats with Duke or UNC....Bottomline oth of those schools have at least 2 more Championships than KU and more F4 appearances...we must do better...
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

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#2028673 - 03/06/18 09:36 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
Jaycat92 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/28/14
Loc: Nebraska
I think that Self gets so up tight during the NCAA tourney that his players get tight and just can't get out of there own way.

Same thing Roy did when he was here. Roy figured it out, I think Self will at some point.

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#2028674 - 03/06/18 09:38 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
Jaycat92 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/28/14
Loc: Nebraska
Its hard to believe that a team like the one in 2012 reached the finals and we have had better teams since and before that failed. I think alot of that was because that team had nothing to prove or to live up too.

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#2028675 - 03/07/18 12:37 AM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Crap shoot is the common excuse from the common KU fan....let me make it simple....I dont mind a F4 loss Kentucky...Maryland....Syracuse....or even an Elite 8 loss to Nova....but I do mind choke NCAA tournament losses to VCU...Oregon...UNI...etc. ..No excuse for those failures. Throw all your dumb comparison stats with Duke or UNC....Bottomline oth of those schools have at least 2 more Championships than KU and more F4 appearances...we must do better...


KU doesn’t compare too badly with Duke and UNC when it comes to the NCAA Tourney during the past 14 years, covering the time of Bill at KU, Roy at UNC and Coach K for his last 14 at Duke. Using the following value system of points for how far each went in the tourney: 7 = N.C., 6 = C.G., 5 = F.F., 4 = E.8, 3 = S.16, 2 = R.32, 1 = R.64, 0 = Did Not Make the Tourney, we come up with the following results:

Result . . . . Duke . . UNC . . KU
N. C. . . . . . 2=14 . . 3=21 . . 1= 7
C. G. . . . . . 0= 0 . . . 0= 0 . . 1= 6
F. F. . . . . . . 1= 5 . . .2=10 . . 0= 0
E. 8. . . . . . .1= 4 . . .3=12 . . 5=20
S. 16. . . . . .5=15. . . 1= 3 . . 2= 6
R.32. . . . . . 2= 4 . . . 4= 8 . . 3= 6
R.64. . . . . . 3= 3 . . . 0= 0 . . 2= 2
DNMT. . . . .0= 0 . . . 1= 0 . . 0= 0
Total points . . 45 . . . . .54 . . . . 47

There’s not a lot of different in the three teams. Yes, I see that UNC has the most points and that is due to three N.Cs, congratulations to them. KU did edge out Duke. I know Phoggy that you won’t like the rating system and would want more points for a national championship. But that would mean we should also penalize more for not making the tourney which UNC did. Another note, KU has beaten UNC all three times they’ve met during these 14 years in the tourney, one in which UNC was the top # 1 seed, ought to be worth something. KU and Duke haven’t met nor have Duke and UNC during these 14 years.

Phoggy, I know you don’t like my charts, they make you gnash your teeth, but they do give us something concrete to look at instead of just creating a bunch of hot air about what we think. As far as the tourney being too much of a crap shot, we know that many times the most likely best team in the tournament did not win the national championship. Sometimes many thought that the championship would be a slam dunk for a certain team and yet they didn't win it. Some lessor team got hot or the best team had a bad game, that's part of being a crap shot. Baseball's having a series is the most accurate way of determining the best and that probably doesn't always happen, but at least it comes closer. The NBA does the same thing with the same result. I think that college basketball could be improved by doing away with conference tourneys, cutting down on non-conference games, but also scheduling cross conference games instead of weak teams and having a series of sorts for the national championship. I know it will never happen but one loss and out makes it too much of a crap shot. Even so, I still enjoy the NCAA Tournament and I'm always rooting for KU to win the championship.

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#2028676 - 03/07/18 08:08 AM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
You are only kidding ypur self if you think I would gnash my teeth over any goofy rating system. But cmon even you should admit that KU should have gotten a few more true NCAA titles by now...also should you not deduct points for losing in the round of 64...or get 1 pt each for each time you win a first round game..and if you won a championship wouldnt you get points for making the F4 and the runner up game...Your point system is flawed bigtime...rework it correctly then it will have some merit..it does not now... .cmon think Mc1952...THINK..


Edited by PHOGUSHER (03/07/18 10:38 AM)
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

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#2028680 - 03/07/18 11:36 AM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 01/18/08
My friend, apparently you don't read my posts very closely. In the original post in this thread this is what I said concerning our not getting enough national championships:

"Am I making light of NCAA national championships? By no means. I desire them as much as the next person. Should we have more than we do? Certainly. We’ve let a few slip through our hands when we shouldn’t have. On the other hand, maybe we won one or two we weren’t suppose to. But that’s what often happens when you are looking at single games, which is what the NCAA championship basically is, one bad game, one bad play, one bad whatever and you’re out. It’s happened to the BEST numerous times. But at other times a team gets really hot, everything falls into place, they upset higher seeds and maybe they’re even the champs. Things just happen."

We love to fuss back and forth, but when it gets down to it, we agree a lot more than we disagree.

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#2028681 - 03/07/18 11:51 AM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 01/18/08
If you think my point system is so flawed, why don't you come up with a better one? You're saying take away points for losing in the first round. Getting into the first round is a biggy, only 64 teams get into it out of well over 300 potential teams. Getting into the championship game is a major achievement. How many points are you going to give for that? How many more points are you going to give for getting into the Elite 8? That's certainly a much more major step than the Sweet 16. Not making the tourney would have to be a major deduction. Double or triple the points for each step made. All that does is keep the same basic comparison. I'm satisfied with my point system. It's actually the same system that the AP uses for it's top 25 poll, only it's 1 - 25 points for each step instead of 1 - 7 as I have done. Sorry that you aren't satisfied. So make it better and we can all pick it apart.

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#2028682 - 03/07/18 12:08 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Why waste my time to make a useless point. I dont need a lengthy flawed diatribe justify KUs eliteness. We already know they are elite. I just want them to close the deal more frequently. It irks me that UConn has 4 NCAA titles to our 3 and they achieved that in the last 25 yrs. Again I want more.
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

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#2028684 - 03/07/18 12:39 PM Re: It's Really Mind Boggling! [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 01/18/08
UCONN's 2011 championship was one of those crap shots as a # 7 seed.

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