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#2024186 - 11/30/17 09:03 AM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: namohcan_99]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
Just to be clear, Mangino was also making good in-roads with some good recruiting locations such as Florida and up in Ohio and Illinois. I don't see that with Beaty. Also, Mangino wasn't recruiting many jucos by the time he left. And if I remember, that was something Zenger and Beaty were in agreement on that we need more high school recruits. Now we are going back to recruiting jucos, something that Weis did that never fixed any of our gaping holes. They just put some band-aids on some very poor positions due to a lack of depth, and other various reasons.
Yep, Mangino signed 4 JUCO's in both of his final 2 classes at KU. Without checking the details, I believe that's fewer than in any class since Mangino's final recruiting class at KU.

I've said it several times now, I'd like no more than about 5 or so JUCO's per year and Beaty has averaged 7 per year so far which is a couple more than I'd like.

I've also said several times that Weis recruited way more JUCO's (about 13 per year) than Beaty has so far and Weis recruited almost exclusively 2x2 or 3x2 summer grad JUCO's who are the riskier ones to sign. He also took big chances on a bunch of talented JUCO's with other issues who never contributed a thing to KU because their other issues sank them. Nothing at all like the JUCO's Beaty has been signing who have almost all been early mid-year grads and quite a few have been 4x3 or 3x3 guys as well as qualifiers out of HS(i.e. guys who chose the JUCO route and not forced to the JUCO route). Still a couple more per year than I'd prefer, but I've got no real issue with taking a 4x3 or 3x3 JUCO midyear early grad over a HS recruit if the coaches think he's a better recruit as there's only 1 year of eligibility difference between the 2 as well as only about 1 year difference in how much time they'll ultimately spend in our program.

I think he's felt with our horrible roster situation he had to get more JUCO's than he wanted to just to field a team. Just my guess from everything I've heard him say about the subject over the years and I'm not endorsing taking as many as he did, but rather giving my best guess on why he did.

Originally Posted By: namochan_99
And the number of Kansas players on K-State over KU is large. I don't care if they are walk-ons because several of those walk-ons really developed into key positions. Geary is a good example of that. We don't have a good walk-on process, which is something I complained about early. We pushed out kids from Kansas who wanted to be on this team to rebuild. We cut kids of KU legends like Seuer. I want kids who want to be at Kansas.
Virtually all of what you mentioned happened under Weis and not at all has been happening under Beaty. Beaty in fact has gone out of his way to recruit within the state for both walkons and scholarship players. They've visited just about every single high school within the state at least once a year every year Beaty has been here. They've visited schools and talked to coaches that neither KU nor ksu has visited or talked to in years, even decades. Believe me, they've even far out worked and visited way more schools than ksu has over that same time period. Any failures to get more Kansas guys to walkon or sign with KU under Beaty haven't been for a lack of effort or trying.

I agree ksu has A TON more walkon guys from within the state of Kansas than KU does and I'd like to see that change also, but it's certainly not the case right now because Beaty has ignored recruiting within the state or not made the effort to recruit within the state.

Originally Posted By: namochan_99
I may have misstated something, because I thought I was comparing Mangino's recruiting of Oklahoma versus Beaty's. Mangino did a great job with Oklahoma.
Nah, I just threw in Gill and Weis for comparison sake as to how much KU has or hasn't recruited Oklahoma since Mangino. Gill and Weis more or less didn't recruit the state of Oklahoma at all. Beaty is doing a decent job at it, but not as good of a job as Mangino.

Originally Posted By: namochan_99
I think Beaty is in over his head. I think the point of this thread which was about his statement against the captains is a good explanation of his coaching style. If the media or whomever didn't make a big thing of it, which I don't think it was that big of a thing, this would have made no difference. I think it sent a strong message to the players form the captains that we can compete. Apparently not on offense, but at least for a while on defense we did. If it worked, we'd be singing the praises of the captains and Beaty would be taking credit saying we are getting there with another big win.

There is no consistency other than KU remains strongly inconsistent. I don't see a point in giving Beaty a fourth year to repeat and get 1 or 2 wins, or worse, none. I don't see any power 5 program allowing this. I think Beaty got a fair shot. I think that experiment is over. Maybe he's better as a WR coach or an offensive coordinator. I don't care. He's not met his goals.
I think that's about how 90% or more of the KU fanbase feels right now.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024271 - 12/01/17 11:26 AM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: Kman_blue]
namohcan_99 Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/23/05
Loc: Wichita, KS
I think you glossed over the point of Beaty being hired for a large reason being so well connected in the State of Texas on recruiting. I do feel like we are pushing more jucos to fill holes which I think again glosses over the point that our system of development is not good. As far as Kansas recruits, you are right, Weis is a large part of why we are at where we are at, and that is true for the jucos, too, but I also think it's an excuse we are using to keep Beaty because the job to get KU back to a winning program is a GIGANTIC endeavor. But is Beaty getting there? I hope you are part of the 90% who think Beaty is in over his head. This is not his forte to get this program up and running. I'm saying we need a coach who is great at building something out of nothing. That's what KU needs and Beaty is not that. I'll concede that Beaty has made inroads with Kansas kids, but you have to agree the number of kids versus K-State is quite large at least 2 to 1 if not 3 to 1. We have to fix that. Building recruiting in those 3 States I think is important because that's where a majority of the Big XII is currently. It only makes sense.

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#2024278 - 12/01/17 12:18 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: namohcan_99]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I think you glossed over the point of Beaty being hired for a large reason being so well connected in the State of Texas on recruiting.
That was a big part in why Zenger said he was hired, yes. I think Beaty did a decently good job at using those connections in his first 3 classes, but not so much in this latest class. Seems we've taken several Louisiana recruits over some Texas ones in this class.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I do feel like we are pushing more jucos to fill holes which I think again glosses over the point that our system of development is not good.
I think it's more a reflection of a few things. One, they've missed on some of the HS recruits from previous classes. Two, they missed out on some HS recruits in the past 2 classes that would have hopefully been filling these holes. Three, they're still trying to deal with the final effects of the giant roster hole they inherited.

To me, the only unit that appears to me there's a good argument of lack of player development has been our OL. They're young and inexperienced and have had some injury problems, but some guys don't look to have developed much either.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
As far as Kansas recruits, you are right, Weis is a large part of why we are at where we are at, and that is true for the jucos, too,
Mangino recruited Oklahoma really well. Gill didn't recruit Oklahoma much. Weis didn't recruit Oklahoma at all. Beaty has been trying to recruit Oklahoma and has had some success.

That's my take on the last 4 coach's Oklahoma recruiting. I'm with you, I think it's an important state for us to keep recruiting and I'm glad Beaty is at least trying to recruit there. I wouldn't blame the drop off in OK recruiting all on Weis either, but on both him and Gill. I'd also like it if Beaty could be more successful there too, but with Okie St. doing the best they've ever done in their program history it's made it more difficult to be successful there as a lot of the OK guys OU doesn't go after now want an Okie St. offer almost as much as they did an OU offer.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
But is Beaty getting there?
Doesn't look like it so far.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I'll concede that Beaty has made inroads with Kansas kids, but you have to agree the number of kids versus K-State is quite large at least 2 to 1 if not 3 to 1. We have to fix that. Building recruiting in those 3 States I think is important because that's where a majority of the Big XII is currently. It only makes sense.
I agree.

I'm not against recruiting Louisiana and any other recruiting hotbed either though. As long as we've got legit shots at getting guys from those areas and aren't spending too many resources in them to the detriment of recruiting our backyard and primary Big 12 footprint (the 3 states you mentioned plus Missouri).
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024281 - 12/01/17 01:29 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: Kman_blue]
track Online   content
gale sayers

Registered: 01/18/06
Loc: Topeka,Kansas
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I think you glossed over the point of Beaty being hired for a large reason being so well connected in the State of Texas on recruiting.
That was a big part in why Zenger said he was hired, yes. I think Beaty did a decently good job at using those connections in his first 3 classes, but not so much in this latest class. Seems we've taken several Louisiana recruits over some Texas ones in this class.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I do feel like we are pushing more jucos to fill holes which I think again glosses over the point that our system of development is not good.
I think it's more a reflection of a few things. One, they've missed on some of the HS recruits from previous classes. Two, they missed out on some HS recruits in the past 2 classes that would have hopefully been filling these holes. Three, they're still trying to deal with the final effects of the giant roster hole they inherited.

To me, the only unit that appears to me there's a good argument of lack of player development has been our OL. They're young and inexperienced and have had some injury problems, but some guys don't look to have developed much either.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
As far as Kansas recruits, you are right, Weis is a large part of why we are at where we are at, and that is true for the jucos, too,
Mangino recruited Oklahoma really well. Gill didn't recruit Oklahoma much. Weis didn't recruit Oklahoma at all. Beaty has been trying to recruit Oklahoma and has had some success.

That's my take on the last 4 coach's Oklahoma recruiting. I'm with you, I think it's an important state for us to keep recruiting and I'm glad Beaty is at least trying to recruit there. I wouldn't blame the drop off in OK recruiting all on Weis either, but on both him and Gill. I'd also like it if Beaty could be more successful there too, but with Okie St. doing the best they've ever done in their program history it's made it more difficult to be successful there as a lot of the OK guys OU doesn't go after now want an Okie St. offer almost as much as they did an OU offer.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
But is Beaty getting there?
Doesn't look like it so far.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I'll concede that Beaty has made inroads with Kansas kids, but you have to agree the number of kids versus K-State is quite large at least 2 to 1 if not 3 to 1. We have to fix that. Building recruiting in those 3 States I think is important because that's where a majority of the Big XII is currently. It only makes sense.
I agree.

I'm not against recruiting Louisiana and any other recruiting hotbed either though. As long as we've got legit shots at getting guys from those areas and aren't spending too many resources in them to the detriment of recruiting our backyard and primary Big 12 footprint (the 3 states you mentioned plus Missouri).

I am excited for next year..probably makes me one of the 2%. I am hopeful the players can take the next step, I would love to see this coaching staff begin to turn the corner and show real progress. I think they are smart and they work hard.....usually a recipe for success

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#2024283 - 12/01/17 01:44 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: track]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: track
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I think you glossed over the point of Beaty being hired for a large reason being so well connected in the State of Texas on recruiting.
That was a big part in why Zenger said he was hired, yes. I think Beaty did a decently good job at using those connections in his first 3 classes, but not so much in this latest class. Seems we've taken several Louisiana recruits over some Texas ones in this class.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I do feel like we are pushing more jucos to fill holes which I think again glosses over the point that our system of development is not good.
I think it's more a reflection of a few things. One, they've missed on some of the HS recruits from previous classes. Two, they missed out on some HS recruits in the past 2 classes that would have hopefully been filling these holes. Three, they're still trying to deal with the final effects of the giant roster hole they inherited.

To me, the only unit that appears to me there's a good argument of lack of player development has been our OL. They're young and inexperienced and have had some injury problems, but some guys don't look to have developed much either.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
As far as Kansas recruits, you are right, Weis is a large part of why we are at where we are at, and that is true for the jucos, too,
Mangino recruited Oklahoma really well. Gill didn't recruit Oklahoma much. Weis didn't recruit Oklahoma at all. Beaty has been trying to recruit Oklahoma and has had some success.

That's my take on the last 4 coach's Oklahoma recruiting. I'm with you, I think it's an important state for us to keep recruiting and I'm glad Beaty is at least trying to recruit there. I wouldn't blame the drop off in OK recruiting all on Weis either, but on both him and Gill. I'd also like it if Beaty could be more successful there too, but with Okie St. doing the best they've ever done in their program history it's made it more difficult to be successful there as a lot of the OK guys OU doesn't go after now want an Okie St. offer almost as much as they did an OU offer.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
But is Beaty getting there?
Doesn't look like it so far.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I'll concede that Beaty has made inroads with Kansas kids, but you have to agree the number of kids versus K-State is quite large at least 2 to 1 if not 3 to 1. We have to fix that. Building recruiting in those 3 States I think is important because that's where a majority of the Big XII is currently. It only makes sense.
I agree.

I'm not against recruiting Louisiana and any other recruiting hotbed either though. As long as we've got legit shots at getting guys from those areas and aren't spending too many resources in them to the detriment of recruiting our backyard and primary Big 12 footprint (the 3 states you mentioned plus Missouri).

I am excited for next year..probably makes me one of the 2%. I am hopeful the players can take the next step, I would love to see this coaching staff begin to turn the corner and show real progress. I think they are smart and they work hard.....usually a recipe for success
Ra ra sis-boom-bah!!!
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2024284 - 12/01/17 01:47 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: casey]
moose1 Online   content
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 12/29/06
Loc: Wichita
Track I think you would be the only one excited for this staff. I think even the people advocating another year for him has just been for stability purposes and not because they they he could be a good coach.

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#2024285 - 12/01/17 02:10 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: moose1]
track Online   content
gale sayers

Registered: 01/18/06
Loc: Topeka,Kansas
Originally Posted By: moose1
Track I think you would be the only one excited for this staff. I think even the people advocating another year for him has just been for stability purposes and not because they they he could be a good coach.

Probably so....and I agree the stability purpose is a pretty good reason along with another year to stock the cupboard to be more attractive to the next coach along with the indoor facility being completed and the funding for the stadium improvements to be farther along. Everything(in my mind) points to the end of next year being a better time to hire a new coach if that becomes necessary. I do believe the team will be better next year...significantly better too.


Edited by track (12/01/17 02:14 PM)

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#2024286 - 12/01/17 02:15 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: track]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: track
Originally Posted By: moose1
Track I think you would be the only one excited for this staff. I think even the people advocating another year for him has just been for stability purposes and not because they they he could be a good coach.

Probably so.
Less than 2 %...
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2024299 - 12/01/17 04:28 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: Kman_blue]
namohcan_99 Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/23/05
Loc: Wichita, KS
So you are saying there is no reason to terminate Beaty? What about Zenger? You admitted we haven't gotten there so far, but in truth, do you believe Beaty is the guy to get us there and do you trust we will given 1 extra year, as that is what this looks like?

I can't agree with you on player development. The line is a mess and always has been. But the QB situation, that we can't seem to get the right guy to go through the entire season. We've struggled getting the ball past the first down line and is a large reason for our negative yards on offense. That's a problem with the line, sure, but also the QB, the coaching, the receivers not getting open or not being able to run routes, cross traffic, etc. Defense has been up and down. I haven't seen any consistency in any part of this program. Sorry, but if you asked me if we were better from the start of this season to the end, I really am not sure I could say I saw a major change other than our competition got harder. Defense kind of came together some but without an offense that never manifested, they were constantly gassed and some players were giving up late in games.

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#2024302 - 12/01/17 05:27 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: casey]
KUHawkhead Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 09/01/02
Loc: Mc to the Pherson
I'll look for the Rah Rah posts when we are sitting 0-5 next year getting ready to shitcan the whole mess.

This team sucks and the staff is incompetent.
_________________________
It's MISSOURI. We don't lose to them at home-Bill Self-2/25/2012

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#2024306 - 12/01/17 06:47 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: track]
moose1 Online   content
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 12/29/06
Loc: Wichita
Originally Posted By: track
Originally Posted By: moose1
Track I think you would be the only one excited for this staff. I think even the people advocating another year for him has just been for stability purposes and not because they they he could be a good coach.

Probably so....and I agree the stability purpose is a pretty good reason along with another year to stock the cupboard to be more attractive to the next coach along with the indoor facility being completed and the funding for the stadium improvements to be farther along. Everything(in my mind) points to the end of next year being a better time to hire a new coach if that becomes necessary. I do believe the team will be better next year...significantly better too.


We have been told for nine years that next year would be better. None of them have been. I am sick of KU pissing on the football fans backs and telling us it is raining. Maybe that is negative, but they have #earnedit.

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#2024307 - 12/01/17 07:44 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: moose1]
track Online   content
gale sayers

Registered: 01/18/06
Loc: Topeka,Kansas
Originally Posted By: moose1
Originally Posted By: track
Originally Posted By: moose1
Track I think you would be the only one excited for this staff. I think even the people advocating another year for him has just been for stability purposes and not because they they he could be a good coach.

Probably so....and I agree the stability purpose is a pretty good reason along with another year to stock the cupboard to be more attractive to the next coach along with the indoor facility being completed and the funding for the stadium improvements to be farther along. Everything(in my mind) points to the end of next year being a better time to hire a new coach if that becomes necessary. I do believe the team will be better next year...significantly better too.


We have been told for nine years that next year would be better. None of them have been. I am sick of KU pissing on the football fans backs and telling us it is raining. Maybe that is negative, but they have #earnedit.

I don’t believe we have been told every year is going to be better for nine years. Each year has had its own issues. We did about what I expected the first two years after Weis. I expected more this year but the offensive line and defensive backfield never developed. That happens when you have a young depleted team. You don’t make progress when you have 4 different coaches in 9 years. Each coaching change involves a step backwards. The best programs are usually the ones that have had long periods of stability in the coaching.

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#2024309 - 12/01/17 08:16 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: namohcan_99]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
So you are saying there is no reason to terminate Beaty? What about Zenger?
I wasn't trying to make a case either way. I wouldn't have a problem if Zenger got fired, but I do think it would be a mistake to fire Beaty right now. I think you give him next year for a lot of reasons that'll help the program overall in the longer run even if he falls flat on his face next year.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
You admitted we haven't gotten there so far, but in truth, do you believe Beaty is the guy to get us there and do you trust we will given 1 extra year, as that is what this looks like?
I've got more doubts than confidence. Really hope my doubts are wrong because he's at least getting next year regardless of what any of us think.

Originally Posted By: namohcan_99
I can't agree with you on player development. The line is a mess and always has been. But the QB situation, that we can't seem to get the right guy to go through the entire season. We've struggled getting the ball past the first down line and is a large reason for our negative yards on offense. That's a problem with the line, sure, but also the QB, the coaching, the receivers not getting open or not being able to run routes, cross traffic, etc. Defense has been up and down. I haven't seen any consistency in any part of this program. Sorry, but if you asked me if we were better from the start of this season to the end, I really am not sure I could say I saw a major change other than our competition got harder. Defense kind of came together some but without an offense that never manifested, they were constantly gassed and some players were giving up late in games.
I agree most units were inconsistent much of the year. I think that's in large part a reflection of youth and inexperience.

The OL injuries and other problems they had made the entire O look bad. If we had more experience as well as less injuries on the OL, I believe our O would have been much more consistent and would have kept producing at a similar rate to what it did in the first part of the season. I also disagree about our WR's not running good routes or getting open. Sims, Fairs, Patrick, and Johnson (Yeah a TE, but mostly a pass catching TE in our scheme) all got open plenty. Our QB's were either scrambling, or ducking down to try and save their lives while getting sacked to get them the ball consistently. Bender really struggles under any kind of pressure too. I guess I will amend my initial comment about what units progressed and say you could also argue the QB's didn't even though I think if they had an adequate OL they would have at least stayed consistent.

On D, I'd say the secondary and the DL both were playing markedly better in the second half of the season than the first. The LB's played about the same throughout IMO.

There were still too many coaching mistakes and general team failures. Combine that with injuries on an already thin team still as well as a ton of youth/inexperience and we get what we got. Plenty to not be happy with and I don't think anyone is, including me.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024312 - 12/01/17 08:34 PM Re: Beaty's qualified apology [Re: KUHawkhead]
namohcan_99 Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/23/05
Loc: Wichita, KS
Originally Posted By: KUHawkhead
I'll look for the Rah Rah posts when we are sitting 0-5 next year getting ready to shitcan the whole mess.

This team sucks and the staff is incompetent.


But we say that every year. Honestly, the fan base has done what we said, it's gone down, at least in the stands. I don't think the fans have the confidence in KU fielding a winning team. I was hopeful that Beaty at least would move us in the right direction. I don't know how to feel about what I have heard and seen from Beaty. I think he's out of his element. This is a big task that is going to take the right guy and it can't just be anybody. There are only a few coaches I can think of that can do this and we can get some of them. I just don't think we will because we have an AD who is also over his head and I don't know about this chancellor but it seems this is a bad design. The AD is easier to replace than the coach. Should be thinking of getting an AD in who can make the right hire and Zenger has proven twice now that he cannot do that.

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