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#2024179 - 11/30/17 07:44 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! *** [Re: PbBut]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: PbBut
Again....the truth is that it makes no difference where players come from. What matters is that they have the ability and we provide the coaching to get them to become Big 12 level players. At a high percentage, we are either 1) failing to identify the right players, 2) not coaching them to the level to compete in this conference or, 3) the kids who can compete in this conference will NOT come here in enough numbers to make a difference.
I'd add 4)Hardly any upperclassmen on the roster with the experience and/or the talent needed.

IMHO, that along with your #2 is our main problem right now in that order. I'd edit your #2 a bit to say they aren't being coached up as a cohesive group enough. i.e. coached up enough to play as a cohesive O or D where guys are playing their proper responsibilities, etc. Some guys don't look to be coached up enough individually too, but others do and that's why I think it's more about being coached up to play as a coordinated group.

Originally Posted By: PbBut
The problem with taking many JuCos now is that in heading into year four, the staff is taking on a look of desperation, and it flies in the face of how Beaty/Zenger said they would rebuild this team and roster.
Depends on how many JUCO's we end up with IMHO if it looks more like desperation or like plugging holes that most all P-5 programs have from year to year. Could well come off looking like some of both.

Originally Posted By: PbBut
We have had three JuCo commits at DB in the past week, which some have indicated is a position of need, but a quick look at the roster appears to indicate we potentially have 18 returnees at DB already on the roster, 15 I believe are scholarship players. Going into year four, these would all be Beaty players unless there as a RS senior. I know this is a pass happy league, but still…
You're combining DB's and S's/NB's together here.

First, just to illustrate how Weis's poor recruiting is still an issue for us is the fact that out of the 10 DB's and 9 S's/NB's on our roster 1 was a Weis recruit! 1!

Most teams would have at least 1/2 of their starters being RS Jr.'s, Sr.'s, or RS Sr.'s (which would all have to have been Weis recruits).

But here's the breakdown of our roster. We've got 10 DB's on roster. 8 recruited scholarship guys and 2 walkons. Here's what classes they came in.

1 recruited scholarship guy was a 2014 Weis recruit, in Derrick Neal and he got hurt for the season in the WVU game.
1 guy was part of Beaty's first class in 2015 at KU and he's a walkon who's played sparingly on D and quite a bit on special teams.
6 guys were part of Beaty's 2nd class in 2016. 2 were JUCO's with 1 of them being a walkon. 2 have missed entire seasons due to injuries. 2 have played quite a bit and contributed.
2 guys were part of Beaty's 3rd class for 2017. 1 JUCO and 1 HS guy. The JUCO, Defense, is arguably our best cover DB and started for us. He's also a 4x3 guy. The HS guy, Topps, RS this year.

I think they missed on a couple of guys. Got unlucky and bit in the ass by the injury bug on another 3 guys and didn't take enough guys in Beaty's 1st class at KU, but in fairness there were so many holes on the roster to fill at that time due to Weis's horrible mismanagement of our roster that they just didn't have the scholarships to get more without sacrificing another position group to do it.

You can certainly blame them for missing on a couple guys and also could argue they haven't adequately coached up the guys they do have too, but I don't think it's fair to blame them for the bad roster situation they inherited nor for 3 guys missing all or significant chunks of seasons with injuries.

As for our S's/NB's, here's how that breaks down.
We've got 9 guys on roster with 2 being walkons and the other 7 being recruited scholarship guys. 1 guy is a JUCO. All the others are HS recruits.

ZERO guys from Weis's era.
3 guys are from Beaty's 1st class in 2015. All 3 have played and contributed, but 1 has had injury problems also.
3 guys are from Beaty's 2nd class in 2016, though 1 (Charlot) was a late switch to the position during this season. The other 2 guys, Lee and Torneden, have played a bunch and contributed a bunch. Torneden specifically looked to me like 1 they missed on early on in the season, but when they switched him from S to NB he improved exponentially IMHO and has proven to be a quality player for us.
3 guys are from Beaty's 3rd class in 2017. 2 are walkons and 1, Cole is a JUCO. Cole missed most all of the season due to injury and the 2 walkons didn't play a snap, even on special teams.

Here too I think they still missed on 1 or 2 guys and with 2 got hit by the injury bug. You could blame the coaches for not getting another S or NB in this past class (2017) as they probably could have made that work in the scholarship department, but that player would also have to have been a JUCO recruit to have helped us out any this year.

So, to sum it up, they missed on a few guys and injuries killed us with a few more and they probably didn't take 1 more S or NB in the 2017 class they should have IMHO. That leaves us with guys coming off serious injuries who the coaches aren't 100% sure about if they're still going to be the players they thought and who also have lost 1 years worth of experience along with a few guys they looked to have missed on (100% the coaches fault here) which now leaves them with a few holes that need to be plugged for 2018. JUCO's are much more likely to do that than true Freshman HS recruits, though Harris has a real chance to be the exception here.

Originally Posted By: PbBut
My opinion is that if you have to recruit JuCos over the top of that many players, you’re doing something wrong, either development of identification. By this time we should be in a position where we’re recruiting HS kids with a plan at development, not looking to JuCos because the 15-18 we already have aren’t getting it done.
IMHO they've failed in identification the most and then injuries would be the 2nd biggest contributor to the need for some JUCO DB's and or a S/NB in this class.


Edited by Kman_blue (11/30/17 10:52 AM)
Edit Reason: Mistakenly called Cole Topps in the S/NB part.
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#2024180 - 11/30/17 07:49 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: KUCO_VOC]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: KUCO_VOC
Kman best case scenario on Jucos in general was really intertaining to read. But hopelessly optimistic about Beaty saying one thing and doing another. And still blaming CW is a a nice touch.
Optimistic about Beaty? I think I've been clear in my questions and criticisms about him in addition to laying out the facts of our roster/recruiting situation.

Despite your fetish for Weis, he fuc|ked up our roster to a degree which is just about incomprehensible and would have put any coach we hired behind the 8 ball for 4 or 5 years to come. Regardless of who that coach would have been, even if we had retained Weis himself, he'd have been in a massive roster hole of his own doing for 4 or 5 years!
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#2024181 - 11/30/17 07:53 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: moose1]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: moose1
Originally Posted By: PbBut
Of course the staff may already have indications that some critical "returnees" may not be returning. That would be truly painful.


Speaking of which, what is up with Mike Lee and his cryptic tweets?
He's upset the season is over. I think he's upset with how he himself played as well as how the season went. I believe that's as cryptic as it gets with his tweets.

Too many paranoid and fearful KU fans trying to read something ominous into his tweets IMHO. With how the season went and how most of our fans are feeling, I totally get it, but don't think it's at all accurate from what I've heard.
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#2024189 - 11/30/17 10:00 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Kman_blue]
PbBut Offline
Pure Jayhawk

Registered: 10/30/04
Loc: 66227
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue

Too many paranoid and fearful KU fans trying to read something ominous into his tweets IMHO. With how the season went and how most of our fans are feeling, I totally get it, but don't think it's at all accurate from what I've heard.


You may want to add cynical to your description of KU football fans. Then again I think we've

#EarnedIt
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#2024191 - 11/30/17 10:04 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: PbBut]
Magicman Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 10/07/13
Clayton Tune - QB re-commits to KU.

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#2024192 - 11/30/17 10:39 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: PbBut]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: PbBut
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue

Too many paranoid and fearful KU fans trying to read something ominous into his tweets IMHO. With how the season went and how most of our fans are feeling, I totally get it, but don't think it's at all accurate from what I've heard.


You may want to add cynical to your description of KU football fans. Then again I think we've

#EarnedIt
LOL!

I really did chuckle out loud on this one.
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"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024193 - 11/30/17 10:48 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Magicman]
kylecof11 Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 07/20/09
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Magicman
Clayton Tune - QB re-commits to KU.


Good news. Glad staff stayed in touch. KU was Tune's first big offer and I'm glad he stayed with it. Baylor was coming on hard late, but Beaty beat out his good friend McGuire for Tune.
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#2024194 - 11/30/17 10:55 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Magicman]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Magicman
Clayton Tune - QB re-commits to KU.
I'm curious if this causes KU to back off the JUCO QB's they've been on lately or if they think they still need the added depth.
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"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024195 - 11/30/17 11:02 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Kman_blue]
kylecof11 Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 07/20/09
Loc: Kansas
Not sure if they need any more depth. They'll have a senior in Bender, a Junior in Stanley, a Sophomore in Starks, and now freshmen in Miles and Tune. 5 guys deep at QB. Don't think a JUCO guy is needed for this class at QB. They should back off now.
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#2024219 - 11/30/17 04:44 PM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Kman_blue]
schmuck34 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 12/13/11
Loc: Kansas
They're off the JUCO guys already from what I've heard he'll be the only QB in the class.

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#2024240 - 11/30/17 08:51 PM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Kman_blue]
schmuck34 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 12/13/11
Loc: Kansas
Charles Cole 3 star DE Butler CC 6'3 280 visiting this weekend.

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#2024241 - 11/30/17 09:33 PM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: schmuck34]
EstebanBugatti Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 12/07/15
Originally Posted By: schmuck34
Charles Cole 3 star DE Butler CC 6'3 280 visiting this weekend.


Another Juco recruit, shocking.

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#2024242 - 11/30/17 10:08 PM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Magicman]
vmlb Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 11/25/06
Originally Posted By: Magicman
Clayton Tune - QB re-commits to KU.


Did he decommit thinking the staff wouldn't be here, then recommit after the non firing was announced?

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#2024243 - 12/01/17 12:35 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: vmlb]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: vmlb
Originally Posted By: Magicman
Clayton Tune - QB re-commits to KU.


Did he decommit thinking the staff wouldn't be here, then recommit after the non firing was announced?
The circumstances around his decommitment were kind of weird.

I heard 2 completely different versions of what went on.

My best guess is that Tune might have thought(incorrectly) KU was cooling on him for some reason and Baylor was starting to go after him hard. Believe Baylor's pitch was a lot of negative recruiting against KU more so than trying to sell him on Baylor. That's just a guess from me based on 3rd and maybe even 4th hand information along with I believe the Baylor coaches had an in home visit with him shortly before he decommitted.
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"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2024253 - 12/01/17 06:44 AM Re: Recruiting Class 2018 News, Updates,etc! [Re: Kman_blue]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Originally Posted By: KUCO_VOC
Kman best case scenario on Jucos in general was really intertaining to read. But hopelessly optimistic about Beaty saying one thing and doing another. And still blaming CW is a a nice touch.
Optimistic about Beaty? I think I've been clear in my questions and criticisms about him in addition to laying out the facts of our roster/recruiting situation.

Despite your fetish for Weis, he fuc|ked up our roster to a degree which is just about incomprehensible and would have put any coach we hired behind the 8 ball for 4 or 5 years to come. Regardless of who that coach would have been, even if we had retained Weis himself, he'd have been in a massive roster hole of his own doing for 4 or 5 years!
If you think Weis is still in the running for worst coach ever, I have another candidate or two...after two full seasons!

And you're dancing around, either the lack of individual or unit coaching skills by the players and/or coaches responsible for teaching, is entertaining. A breakdown in your opinion of the staff involved would be as well.

Edit: 247 composite team recruiting rankings for 2018 has slipped one more notch lower into the 80's BTW.

"Beaty also has had trouble resisting the temptation of taking recruiting shortcuts. In his first three recruiting classes, Beaty gave scholarships to an estimated 45 high school players and 29 transfers" TK source from LJW story.
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