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#2021568 - 10/10/17 07:18 PM Unpopular message
Yardbirdbob Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 10/07/12
I remember so clearly that most on this board agreed Coach Beaty should get 5 years to right this ship. The progress has admittedly been slow, but HCDB has moved this program forward by better recruiting and class balance, if nothing else.

Now, driven by the echo chamber of this message board and the Phog's Gridiron Talk, the media has jumped on board the "to hell with them all, let's start over again" mantra.

Not saying it is necessarily wrong, but there are many risks to this action. To name a few:

- a dwindling pool of coaches willing to put up with 2.5 years to complete turn around. and, In a year with many blue blood programs looking for new coaches.
- another new coach, probably going to demand a guaranteed contract,
- another expensive buy out of current coaches,
- installation of a new system, probably going to want to recruit "his type" of players,
- risk losing current best players (Armstrong, Wise, Lee, etc) ,
- risk losing another recruiting class,
- risk stadium improvements as BMDs don't want to put up $$$$ with the future of the program, AD, etc, all up in the air.

As I've said several times before on this board, KU football fans are cursed. Cursed because a basketball team is much easier to build than a FB team. Cursed because KSU captured lightening in a bottle with Snyder. Cursed because the vast majority of casual KU FB fans have no idea of the complexity of developing a good FB program. Cursed because KU was, is, and always will be a BB first university - and not by a little bit, but BB first by a country mile.

It appears as though the "out with the bastards movement" is gaining momentum, again. Time will tell if it will deliver the intended results, or if history will repeat.

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#2021569 - 10/10/17 07:44 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
I doubt that coach Beaty is going to get fired before the end of the 2018 season if he's going to get fired at all.

As I noted in another thread, there's a few big money donors who fully support him, or at least they did up until last week. Don't think they've jumped ship yet either, but that's just my guess right now as I haven't heard anything since then.

So, unless some or most of those BMD's put pressure on Girod(cause Zenger would most likely be gone too) and/or put up some big money on the table to get rid of Beaty and hire someone new, I don't think it's going to happen despite what the fan consensus may be.

So, in short I don't think we're going to have to worry about the risks you listed. At least not because coach Beaty got fired. Continued dismal on field performance may prompt a couple of them all by itself though.

I do agree that going through coaching changes every 2 1/2 years is terrible for program stability as well as roster stability and quality. It tears apart the foundation which all good programs are built on and that alone takes a few of years to repair depending on how bad it is.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2021570 - 10/10/17 07:46 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
PbBut Offline
Pure Jayhawk

Registered: 10/30/04
Loc: 66227
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said. The problem is we have an Athletic Director who is compensated very well to know all the things you described, and he appears to have failed as badly as anyone ever has.

We have been marketed hope for the future while appearing to take steps back. We were sold all spring on upgrades from the likes of Baldwin and Charlot and better days ahead. The Texas recruiting guru, which was supposed to be Beaty's strength, I believe has one Texas commit so far in the class of 2018. The game results are not in question after the first ten minutes.

I, too, felt Beaty or anyone deserved "5 years to right the ship". Implicit in that was that progress would be made. We're 50% of the way to five years, you can use our own observations to determine the percentage of progress.

The AD implemented a plan to hold ticket prices static, to reward you for your "loyalty". In my world, loyalty is a two way street and Zenger isn't living up to his end of the bargain. Zenger has got to go.
_________________________
Zenger? Never!

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#2021571 - 10/10/17 07:49 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Kman_blue]
Yardbirdbob Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 10/07/12
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
I doubt that coach Beaty is going to get fired before the end of the 2018 season if he's going to get fired at all.

As I noted in another thread, there's a few big money donors who fully support him, or at least they did up until last week. Don't think they've jumped ship yet either, but that's just my guess right now as I haven't heard anything since then.

So, unless some or most of those BMD's put pressure on Girod(cause Zenger would most likely be gone too) and/or put up some big money on the table to get rid of Beaty and hire someone new, I don't think it's going to happen despite what the fan consensus may be.

So, in short I don't think we're going to have to worry about the risks you listed. At least not because coach Beaty got fired. Continued dismal on field performance may prompt a couple of them all by itself though.

I do agree that going through coaching changes every 2 1/2 years is terrible for program stability as well as roster stability and quality. It tears apart the foundation which all good programs are built on and that alone takes a few of years to repair depending on how bad it is.


I'm guessing that removing Zenger will almost be as bad, or worse than getting rid of HCDB. It will make Beaty a dead man walking, and everyone will know it. If you are going to get rid of one, should probably get rid of both. BTW, I'm not yet advocating for either.

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#2021572 - 10/10/17 07:55 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
jhawkblue Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 10/28/13
I agree that if the current A.D. made another hire the constant changes every 2.5 years would be an issue but with a new A.D. the coaching clock resets,

and just as not a single A.D. (not named Zenger) thought the Beaty was ready for a HC job no new A.D. is going to see this current staffs level of coaching and believe that this is the staff to build a program at KU but unfortunately I think we are stuck with Zenger, Beaty, and Bowen for one more year so we can look forward to 4-44 to cement our position as the worst FBS program in history


Edited by jhawkblue (10/10/17 07:56 PM)

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#2021573 - 10/10/17 07:55 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
Kman_blue Online   content
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
That's what I was implying. If the big money donors put the pressure on or pony up a bunch of cash to make changes happen that'll mean Zenger is gone and then Beaty. At least that's how I think it would go down.

Again, don't think it's gonna happen, if it does happen, until after the 2018 season.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2021574 - 10/10/17 08:13 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
dgless21 Offline
Local Deity

Registered: 03/27/05
Loc: Lawrence Beer Co.
I, personally, have not suggested firing Beaty.

Time to try a new DC, though.

Time to get a fresh set of eyes at AD, too.
_________________________


Hail to thee our Alma Mater, hail to old KU!

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#2021575 - 10/10/17 08:16 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Kman_blue]
Yardbirdbob Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 10/07/12
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
That's what I was implying. If the big money donors put the pressure on or pony up a bunch of cash to make changes happen that'll mean Zenger is gone and then Beaty. At least that's how I think it would go down.

Again, don't think it's gonna happen, if it does happen, until after the 2018 season.


Not sure why you are so confident Beaty makes it to next year. I know you read the same boards and comments sections I do. There is blood in the water and Beaty is hemorrhaging. I'd bet even money he does not make it to 2018. This has all the feel of the waning months of Gill, then Weis. The natives want scalp(s), and will settle for nothing less.

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#2021576 - 10/10/17 08:23 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
dgless21 Offline
Local Deity

Registered: 03/27/05
Loc: Lawrence Beer Co.
Everyone I've heard from suggests Beaty gets at least non-con next year.

No one had heard much about Zenger's safety. No one seems to know how safe Bowen is either.
_________________________


Hail to thee our Alma Mater, hail to old KU!

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#2021577 - 10/10/17 08:38 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: dgless21]
Yardbirdbob Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 10/07/12
Originally Posted By: dgless21
Everyone I've heard from suggests Beaty gets at least non-con next year.

No one had heard much about Zenger's safety. No one seems to know how safe Bowen is either.


Dump Zenger and you might as well dump Beaty. Do you really think that recruits will not figure out that HCDB is a dead man walking the day Zenger is out? If they can't figure it out, the coaches continuing to recruit them will clue them in. . .

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#2021578 - 10/10/17 08:48 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: dgless21]
pizzanbeer Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 07/03/09
I think Beaty has the ship headed in the right direction on offense. Add some larger OL players and a power RB and Beaty should be able to convert on 4th and 1. Most of our players on offense return next season and they are improving.

The problem Beaty is running into is that he made progress recruiting on offense but did not make the same progress with recruiting on defense. He is paying for that mistake this season.

I also agree that Bowen needs to be replaced by a competent DC but Beaty should wait until after the season to make that change. There will be more coaches available at the end of the season so there is no reason to rush firing Bowen.

Then in this recruiting class Beaty needs to turn most of his attention to shoring up the defense. Since Beaty has experience with WRs he may need to get more comfortable recruiting on the defensive side of the ball but that has to be his focus. If I were Beaty and Zenger I would already have my new DC identified from a coaching staff that is on it's way out. Beaty and Zenger will have to overpay the new DC to come to KU so they need to have a very sweet compensation package ready to go. That DC hire needs to happen quickly after the season to stabilize and help with recruiting on defense.


Edited by pizzanbeer (10/10/17 08:50 PM)

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#2021579 - 10/10/17 08:54 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: pizzanbeer]
Yardbirdbob Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 10/07/12
Originally Posted By: pizzanbeer
I think Beaty has the ship headed in the right direction on offense. Add some larger OL players and a power RB and Beaty should be able to convert on 4th and 1. Most of our players on offense return next season and they are improving.

The problem Beaty is running into is that he made progress recruiting on offense but did not make the same progress on defense. He is paying for that mistake this season. I also agree that Bowen needs to be replaced by a competent DC but Beaty should wait until after the season to make that change. There will be more coaches available at the end of the season so there is no reason to rush firing Bowen.

Then in this recruiting class Beaty needs to turn most of his attention to shoring up the defense. Since Beaty has experience with WRs he may need to get more comfortable recruiting on the defensive side of the ball but that has to be his focus. If I were Beaty and Zenger I would already have my new DC identified from a coaching staff that is on it's way out. Beaty and Zenger will have to overpay the new DC to come to KU so they need to have a very sweet compensation package ready to go. That DC hire needs to happen quickly after the season to stabilize and help with recruiting.


All very reasonable suggestions. But have you read the Phog tonight? Go spend 15 minutes there and see if you can honestly tell me you think Beaty will be here this time next year. . . Hell, look at the comment sections on this weeks football articles in the LJW on-line. Beaty might well be here next year, but if I was a recruit with a brain, I wouldn't bet he'd be at KU through 2019.

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#2021581 - 10/10/17 09:28 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Originally Posted By: Yardbirdbob

- a dwindling pool of coaches willing to put up with 2.5 years to complete turn around.


False premise, stopped reading right here. Go back to school.

No one is expecting a complete turnaround. We are expecting a coach to be able to field a competitive team.

4 wins is competitive.
4 wins is attainable in 2-3 years.
_________________________
I'm the slickest they is
I'm the quickest they is
Did I say I'm the slickest they is?

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#2021582 - 10/10/17 09:42 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: Yardbirdbob]
pizzanbeer Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 07/03/09
Originally Posted By: Yardbirdbob
All very reasonable suggestions. But have you read the Phog tonight? Go spend 15 minutes there and see if you can honestly tell me you think Beaty will be here this time next year. . . Hell, look at the comment sections on this weeks football articles in the LJW on-line. Beaty might well be here next year, but if I was a recruit with a brain, I wouldn't bet he'd be at KU through 2019.


The Phog opinion on Beaty does not change my opinion. Most of their frustration is with the performance on the defensive side. I believe Beaty will be here next season because we just extended his contract. He deserves 4 years based on how bad Weis killed the program. Recruits need to see a very strong hire for the new DC. That hire will make or break Beaty.

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#2021585 - 10/10/17 11:07 PM Re: Unpopular message [Re: pizzanbeer]
EstebanBugatti Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 12/07/15
Originally Posted By: pizzanbeer
Originally Posted By: Yardbirdbob
All very reasonable suggestions. But have you read the Phog tonight? Go spend 15 minutes there and see if you can honestly tell me you think Beaty will be here this time next year. . . Hell, look at the comment sections on this weeks football articles in the LJW on-line. Beaty might well be here next year, but if I was a recruit with a brain, I wouldn't bet he'd be at KU through 2019.


The Phog opinion on Beaty does not change my opinion. Most of their frustration is with the performance on the defensive side. I believe Beaty will be here next season because we just extended his contract. He deserves 4 years based on how bad Weis killed the program. Recruits need to see a very strong hire for the new DC. That hire will make or break Beaty.


Beaty is already broken. He is refusing to accept that Bowen is an awful DC. He just can't look past the fact that Bowen is his buddy and see what everyone else can.

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