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#2021372 - 10/05/17 01:26 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: dgless21]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
I think you missed my point.

I wasn't defending Bowen. The D's under him have not been good at all. I do think looking at the 3 intervening years when he wasn't our DC or even at KU in any capacity sheds some light on the fact that our problems have also gone beyond any of his shortcomings.

I actually think that so far this year, in relation to our roster on D, this is his worse performance while at KU as our DC. We showed some signs during the WVU that things may be getting better and we've had 2 key injuries in the secondary which has really hurt us too, but we still should have played much better on D than we have IMHO. Hopefully with getting Richmond and possibly Cole back we'll continue to improve as I think our O is already improving.

As for wanting to try and normalize the D numbers for a little bit better comparison of the year to year numbers I'm more curious to see if that would show any real differences in our D from year to year. The national ranking probably wouldn't change much but we've faced a murderer's row of O's year in and year out over the past several years and that has to affect things some. Maybe even enough to cover up any real trends with our D.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2021373 - 10/05/17 01:29 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: dgless21]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Forgot to say my initial post with the crazy and sick emoticons was in jest.

I think every KU football fan realizes we've had the absolute worse 5 to 7 year stretch in our entire football history over that time frame, so pointing out numbers that smack you in the face with it isn't really a revelation hence the crazy emoticon in jest.

Looking at those numbers does make me sick as does realizing how long we've been so bad is sickening too which lead to the sick emoticon.


Edited by Kman_blue (10/06/17 01:29 PM)
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2021374 - 10/05/17 01:31 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: pizzanbeer]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
As far as the offense being ranked 24th nationally, there are some serious issues in that INTs and turnovers are not in the 24th nationally. Rather are in the bottom of the rankings system. Replace Bender with Stanley if you want improvement there.
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2021375 - 10/05/17 02:00 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: Kman_blue]
track Online   content
gale sayers

Registered: 01/18/06
Loc: Topeka,Kansas
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Forgot to say my initial post with the crazy and sick emoticons was in jest.

I think every KU football fan realizes we've had the absolute worse 5 to 7 year stretch in our entire football history over that time frame, so pointing out numbers that smack you in the face with it isn't really a revelation hence the crazy emoticon in jest.

Looking at those numbers does make me sick as does realizing how long we've been so bad is sickening too which lead to the crazy emoticon.

I think we all knew starting this season that the secondary was going to be weak but we expected the defensive line to help cover this weakness with pressure. To date the biggest disappointment has been the D line as they haven’t put much pressure on the other team or even made many stops in the run game. Who coaches those guys? Maybe everyone overestimated the D lines abilities.

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#2021377 - 10/05/17 02:57 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: track]
pizzanbeer Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 07/03/09
It seems everyone has come to the conclusion that we need a new DC and coach for safeties.

Now that you have agreed to the problem what do you believe is the solution? Does Beaty fire Bowen and promote Perry to DC and hire a good safeties coach? Or does Beaty fire Bowen, demote Perry and hire a DC that also coaches safeties?

Has anyone else tried to look at other teams where head coaches are on the hot seat to see if there are any safeties coaches that you want Beaty to hire to replace Bowen? I have found that in general it is easier for people to identify a problem than find a solution.

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#2021380 - 10/05/17 03:06 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: pizzanbeer]
track Online   content
gale sayers

Registered: 01/18/06
Loc: Topeka,Kansas
"It seems everyone has come to the conclusion that we need a new DC and coach for safeties. "
Some think we need the entire coaching staff and AD replaced. Some think it's just a bowen problem. Some think we lack the overall talent or we are too young or after one game there were numerous charges that the players just didn't try. I hardly think we have settled on one conclusion. One thing we do know....Losing has been going on since the orange bowl year and that covers mangino's last year, 2 years of Gill, 2 years of Weis and 2 years of Beaty. The common theme seems to be no matter who the coach is we lose....so maybe it's the players and the constant change of coaching staffs that makes it impossible to build a sustainable program.

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#2021381 - 10/05/17 03:15 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: vmlb]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: vmlb
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Just for comparison, in the 3 years (2 under Gill and 1 under Weis) where Bowen wasn't our DC here's how KU ranked.

2010 #103 (out of 120) 6.17ypp
2011 #120 (out of 120) 7.16ypp
2012 #122 (out of 124) 6.78ypp

Our D was crap both with and without him as the DC.


Who was the DC? Where is he now? This is who we should get.

In 2010 our DC was Carl Torbush who's currently the head coach of East Tennessee State (5-6 last year, his 1st as their HC and 2-2 this year so far). He was previously the DC at Miss. St. and before that DC at aTm and before that at Alabama.
Here's how his D's were.

2009 Miss. St. #77 (out of 118) with 5.67ypp
2005 aTm #99 (out of 117) with 5.97ypp
2004 aTm #45 (out of 117) with 5.02ypp
2003 aTm #95 (out of 117) with 5.90
2002 Alabama #8 (out of 117) with 4.38ypp
2001 Alabama #48 (out of 115) with 5.35ypp

In 2011 our DC was Vic Shealy who's now the HC at Houston Baptist University (12-32 overall there and 1-3 this year so far). He was previously the DC at the University of Richmond and before that the DC at UNLV.
Here's how his D's were:
2009 Richmond #18 (out of 118) with 4.56ypp
2008 UNLV #102 (out of 119) with 6.18ypp
2007 UNLV #77 (out of 119) with 5.65ypp
2006 UNLV #98 (out of 119) with 5.87ypp
2005 UNLV #80 (out of 117) with 5.67ypp

In 2012 our DC was Dave Campo who's now retired. He was previously the DC with the Cleveland Browns and before that DC of the Dallas Cowboys.
Here's how his D's at Cleveland were:
2004 Browns #16 with 5.0ypp
2003 Browns #12 with 5.1ypp
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2021382 - 10/05/17 03:27 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: pizzanbeer]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: pizzanbeer
Does Beaty fire Bowen and promote Perry to DC and hire a good safeties coach? Or does Beaty fire Bowen, demote Perry and hire a DC that also coaches safeties?
No and no.

I don't think coach Beaty will fire Bowen after this year. I think it will take a total and I mean total collapse of the D both the rest of this year and next for that to happen. By total collapse, I mean the rest of this year will have to be as bad or worse than it was in our first 3 games and next year would have to be similar or worse as well.

The 1 wildcard I could see is if Bowen can get things done on the recruiting front. I don't think he's been doing too well there and the latest 2 decommits I believe were both his. If he continues to struggle in the recruiting aspect, that could hasten any decision that coach Beaty makes. Maybe...not 100% confident here, but I could see this as pushing him to make a change if the D continues its struggles.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2021383 - 10/05/17 04:21 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: Kman_blue]
pizzanbeer Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 07/03/09
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Originally Posted By: pizzanbeer
Does Beaty fire Bowen and promote Perry to DC and hire a good safeties coach? Or does Beaty fire Bowen, demote Perry and hire a DC that also coaches safeties?
No and no.

I don't think coach Beaty will fire Bowen after this year. I think it will take a total and I mean total collapse of the D both the rest of this year and next for that to happen. By total collapse, I mean the rest of this year will have to be as bad or worse than it was in our first 3 games and next year would have to be similar or worse as well.

The 1 wildcard I could see is if Bowen can get things done on the recruiting front. I don't think he's been doing too well there and the latest 2 decommits I believe were both his. If he continues to struggle in the recruiting aspect, that could hasten any decision that coach Beaty makes. Maybe...not 100% confident here, but I could see this as pushing him to make a change if the D continues its struggles.


Do you think Beaty should fire Bowen based on the performance of the defense? And please no dancing around the question.


Edited by pizzanbeer (10/05/17 04:22 PM)

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#2021391 - 10/05/17 11:28 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: pizzanbeer]
Kman_blue Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/31/08
Loc: Kansas
If it were me, I'd give him until the end of the season and then make the decision. I know, gutsy call, huh?

If the season ended today, I'd be inclined to fire him if I knew I could get a quality replacement. If I had no replacement lined up or wasn't sure I could get someone good, then I'd probably hesitate to do it, but I'd for sure be inquiring to any and all high quality DC's I knew of to see if any were interested and what it would take to get them.

For this year, I don't think I'd do that quite yet though especially if the D improves any. I mean, we did see tangible improvements last year and our D was good enough to win 2 or 3 more games last year. Our O was the problem then. Obviously not the case now, but he's proven he can improve a D throughout the year and I'm inclined to give him a chance to prove it again this year.

He definitely should be on the hot seat at least IMHO.
_________________________
"If I went West, I think I would go to Kansas." -Abraham Lincoln

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#2021397 - 10/06/17 12:31 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: Kman_blue]
vmlb Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 11/25/06
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Originally Posted By: vmlb
Originally Posted By: Kman_blue
Just for comparison, in the 3 years (2 under Gill and 1 under Weis) where Bowen wasn't our DC here's how KU ranked.

2010 #103 (out of 120) 6.17ypp
2011 #120 (out of 120) 7.16ypp
2012 #122 (out of 124) 6.78ypp

Our D was crap both with and without him as the DC.


Who was the DC? Where is he now? This is who we should get.

In 2010 our DC was Carl Torbush who's currently the head coach of East Tennessee State (5-6 last year, his 1st as their HC and 2-2 this year so far). He was previously the DC at Miss. St. and before that DC at aTm and before that at Alabama.
Here's how his D's were.

2009 Miss. St. #77 (out of 118) with 5.67ypp
2005 aTm #99 (out of 117) with 5.97ypp
2004 aTm #45 (out of 117) with 5.02ypp
2003 aTm #95 (out of 117) with 5.90
2002 Alabama #8 (out of 117) with 4.38ypp
2001 Alabama #48 (out of 115) with 5.35ypp

In 2011 our DC was Vic Shealy who's now the HC at Houston Baptist University (12-32 overall there and 1-3 this year so far). He was previously the DC at the University of Richmond and before that the DC at UNLV.
Here's how his D's were:
2009 Richmond #18 (out of 118) with 4.56ypp
2008 UNLV #102 (out of 119) with 6.18ypp
2007 UNLV #77 (out of 119) with 5.65ypp
2006 UNLV #98 (out of 119) with 5.87ypp
2005 UNLV #80 (out of 117) with 5.67ypp

In 2012 our DC was Dave Campo who's now retired. He was previously the DC with the Cleveland Browns and before that DC of the Dallas Cowboys.
Here's how his D's at Cleveland were:
2004 Browns #16 with 5.0ypp
2003 Browns #12 with 5.1ypp


Thanks for the info. These stats make the point that these DCs were better then CB, when they coached at other places; but were far worse when they coached at KU. All their YPPs were better at other schools. Do these stats even register with the "fire Bowen now" fans?????

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#2021398 - 10/06/17 01:42 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: pizzanbeer]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
kman is giving the stats that make his case however I'm leery of using Alabama defensive stats to make his case. Or Decampo's NFL stats. How do they equate to real NCAA stats for a school comparable to Kansas? These two examples are completely apples vs oranges...fire Bowen NOW!
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2021399 - 10/06/17 01:44 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: pizzanbeer]
dgless21 Offline
Local Deity

Registered: 03/27/05
Loc: Lawrence Beer Co.
Yup, at KU, no one has been good. Let's keep the dude we have because there's obviously no point in trying to improve.

If 128th, 109th, and currently 118th isn't a bad enough streak to get you fired as a DC...when is?
_________________________


Hail to thee our Alma Mater, hail to old KU!

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#2021400 - 10/06/17 01:44 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: pizzanbeer]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
If kman wants too, use the same seven years Bowen was DC here compared to DCs ranking against other comparable P1 D1 schools. I bet it's not great, good, or average. Maybe the worst?
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2021401 - 10/06/17 03:19 PM Re: Bowen's Replacement [Re: KUCO_VOC]
Jman1 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 12/12/03
Originally Posted By: KUCO_VOC
If kman wants too, use the same seven years Bowen was DC here compared to DCs ranking against other comparable P1 D1 schools. I bet it's not great, good, or average. Maybe the worst?


Looking at the product on the field, IMO, I would have to say over the seven year period CBs defenses statistically would easily rank last amongst the P5 schools. I cannot think of any P5 team that has been even close to this abysmal on defense in the history of the P5. 3rd and 18 for our D is like 4th and an inch for most others, it's almost a foregone conclusion the opponent is going to convert.

just my opinion


Edited by Jman1 (10/06/17 03:22 PM)

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