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#2016862 - 04/16/17 04:03 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
Sounds like the tiny pipsqueak is squeaking!


More farm logic...the size of the person somehow has something to do with the quality of their argument.
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#2016864 - 04/16/17 04:57 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: JimWest]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
More squeak from the little pipsqueak.

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#2016872 - 04/16/17 07:18 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
Jaycat92 Offline
Max Falkenstien

Registered: 03/28/14
Loc: Nebraska
The biggest measurement on Tourney coaching is Final 4's and titles if we are comparing apples to apples. Roy has elevated himself in this discussion over the last 10 years. Coach K is still the ultimate standard of who everyone is chasing.

Give Self 29 years at a blueblood, I would hope he has more Final 4's and titles than most on this list. I will always say that Roy inherited a gold mine with the 05' class and in 09" that team wasn't going to be defeated. His last two teams have been really good coaching jobs.

I always get the impression we as KU fans are trying so hard to devalue what Roy is doing, and not looking at the fact that he has had almost 30 years of experience at two of the most prestigious places to coach. We are on the struggle bus when it comes to clearing that Elite 8 hurdle, but its a hurdle we are facing on a constant.

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#2016873 - 04/16/17 09:43 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Well if Bill can snag 2 more titles and 4 more F4s in the next 14 years he will be Roy's equal in tournament success. I am hoping for a bit more.
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#2016874 - 04/17/17 12:34 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jaycat92]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: Jaycat92
The biggest measurement on Tourney coaching is Final 4's and titles if we are comparing apples to apples. Roy has elevated himself in this discussion over the last 10 years. Coach K is still the ultimate standard of who everyone is chasing.

Give Self 29 years at a blueblood, I would hope he has more Final 4's and titles than most on this list. I will always say that Roy inherited a gold mine with the 05' class and in 09" that team wasn't going to be defeated. His last two teams have been really good coaching jobs.

I always get the impression we as KU fans are trying so hard to devalue what Roy is doing, and not looking at the fact that he has had almost 30 years of experience at two of the most prestigious places to coach. We are on the struggle bus when it comes to clearing that Elite 8 hurdle, but its a hurdle we are facing on a constant.


Thanks for your comments. I appreciate that you were able to share your thoughts without having to put anyone down. Looks like you've done a lot of posting since joining this board.

There is no perfect means of measuring tournament success. I'm not sure that I agree with you that final fours and titles are the biggest measurement, except that when a team does reach those heights, they do rack up a lot of points in the means of measurement that I set up. Roy has garnered 13 points in just the past two years! They add a lot of points, as they should.

In his last 14 years Calhoun did get three titles but also missed the tournament three times. That has to take off some of the luster of him as a coach. Consistency should count for something. The same is true of Donovan with two titles and three no shows. Coach K has two titles but has had a difficult time getting past the sweet 16, only doing so four times in the past 14 years. But each of us have the privilege to ascertain what we consider important. I do value consistency along with titles and going deep into the tourney. I think my system awards all of these.

I know many like to knock Self for stumbling in the Elite 8 five times at KU but we need to keep in mind that out of 64 (68) coaches that make the tournament each year only eight get to the elite eight. Not a shabby accomplishment, but certainly less than what we are desiring. There were also 279 coaches who didn't even get to a play-in spot in the tourney. I do think that Bill's days are coming for more Final Fours and Titles.

I guess I don't sense that a lot of fans are wanting to put Roy down for his accomplishments, but there are some. The chart I developed certainly puts him at the top as a NCAA Tourney coach. I've always liked Roy, still do, but I'm glad we have Bill. We've been extremely fortunate the past 29 years to have these two as our coaches and I would add Larry, in spite of his mistake, to that making 34 years for us without a losing season. In fact, I appreciate Ted Owens. Yes, he had some real downer years, but there were also some really good years. He didn't always do a good rebuilding job every season whereas Roy and Bill have, at least at KU.

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#2016876 - 04/17/17 07:49 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Nobody is comparing Self to that mook Calhoun . I only compare Self to Roy and K as far as tournament success is concerned. You want to compare him to the other hundreds of coaches that don't coach a blueblood program...UCONN is not one of those btw.

Bill has the talent...tradition..and the greatest fanbase in college hoops at a true top 4 blueblood school. Bottom line his NCAA TOURNAMENT success should have been better in his first 14 seasons. Fuc.k comparing him to Zona..Zags ..etc. And screw that point system crap for tournament success. Final 4s and titles talk...everything else walks.
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#2016877 - 04/17/17 08:57 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952

There is no perfect means of measuring tournament success.


Pretty much every means is better than yours.

Quote:
I'm not sure that I agree with you that final fours and titles are the biggest measurement,


You only say that because if you actually used them as a measurement then you would have to face the reality that THE GREAT DEITY BILL SELF is not actually that great.

Quote:
except that when a team does reach those heights, they do rack up a lot of points in the means of measurement that I set up.


WAHOO!!! You can also get the same number of "points" in your system as WINNING A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP by simply MAKING THE TOURNAMENT 7 years in a row. On what planet are those two feats remotely equivalent?

Quote:
Roy has garnered 13 points in just the past two years! They add a lot of points, as they should.


Dumb.
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I'm the slickest they is
I'm the quickest they is
Did I say I'm the slickest they is?

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#2016878 - 04/17/17 09:07 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Nobody is comparing Self to that mook Calhoun . I only compare Self to Roy and K as far as tournament success is concerned. You want to compare him to the other hundreds of coaches that don't coach a blueblood program...UCONN is not one of those btw.

Bill has the talent...tradition..and the greatest fanbase in college hoops at a true top 4 blueblood school. Bottom line his NCAA TOURNAMENT success should have been better in his first 14 seasons. Fuc.k comparing him to Zona..Zags ..etc. And screw that point system crap for tournament success. Final 4s and titles talk...everything else walks.


My friend Phogy, we're not all that far off in our opinions, but we do have our disagreements. For the history of basketball there's only three truly blueblood schools, UK, KU and UNC. Because of Coach K, many now include Duke in that conversation. Had he not shown up Duke wouldn't be in the conversation. UCLA had a great run with Wooden, but not great consistency either direction from him. The rest are either Johnny come late, fading, never could quite get over the hump or just could never get going. I guess I could add to that those who have flashes of success. As I said in my post, each person can have their own criteria for measurement of success. You're welcomed to your own and I'm happy with mine. Here's to a great season next year.


Edited by Jayhawk1952 (04/17/17 09:08 AM)

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#2016879 - 04/17/17 11:11 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Nobody is comparing Self to that mook Calhoun . I only compare Self to Roy and K as far as tournament success is concerned. You want to compare him to the other hundreds of coaches that don't coach a blueblood program...UCONN is not one of those btw.

Bill has the talent...tradition..and the greatest fanbase in college hoops at a true top 4 blueblood school. Bottom line his NCAA TOURNAMENT success should have been better in his first 14 seasons. Fuc.k comparing him to Zona..Zags ..etc. And screw that point system crap for tournament success. Final 4s and titles talk...everything else walks.


My friend Phogy, we're not all that far off in our opinions, but we do have our disagreements. For the history of basketball there's only three truly blueblood schools, UK, KU and UNC. Because of Coach K, many now include Duke in that conversation. Had he not shown up Duke wouldn't be in the conversation. UCLA had a great run with Wooden, but not great consistency either direction from him. The rest are either Johnny come late, fading, never could quite get over the hump or just could never get going. I guess I could add to that those who have flashes of success. As I said in my post, each person can have their own criteria for measurement of success. You're welcomed to your own and I'm happy with mine. Here's to a great season next year.
Blue Bloods should include Indiana. Should not include UConn...IMO
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#2016882 - 04/17/17 02:25 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: KUCO_VOC]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: KUCO_VOC
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Nobody is comparing Self to that mook Calhoun . I only compare Self to Roy and K as far as tournament success is concerned. You want to compare him to the other hundreds of coaches that don't coach a blueblood program...UCONN is not one of those btw.

Bill has the talent...tradition..and the greatest fanbase in college hoops at a true top 4 blueblood school. Bottom line his NCAA TOURNAMENT success should have been better in his first 14 seasons. Fuc.k comparing him to Zona..Zags ..etc. And screw that point system crap for tournament success. Final 4s and titles talk...everything else walks.


My friend Phogy, we're not all that far off in our opinions, but we do have our disagreements. For the history of basketball there's only three truly blueblood schools, UK, KU and UNC. Because of Coach K, many now include Duke in that conversation. Had he not shown up Duke wouldn't be in the conversation. UCLA had a great run with Wooden, but not great consistency either direction from him. The rest are either Johnny come late, fading, never could quite get over the hump or just could never get going. I guess I could add to that those who have flashes of success. As I said in my post, each person can have their own criteria for measurement of success. You're welcomed to your own and I'm happy with mine. Here's to a great season next year.
Blue Bloods should include Indiana. Should not include UConn...IMO


Indiana has been a blueblood, but they are fading. Missed half of the tourney's the past 14 years and only reached the Sweet 16 three times when they have been in it.

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#2016885 - 04/17/17 03:20 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Fading or not, they ARE a blue blood. 3rd most valuable program in the country during 2017 analysis. 7th in NCAA both in tourney apps with 39 total and in tourney victories. 5 NCAA championships since 1940 tied for fourth in history (Duke). The records could go on forever. All recruits are staying committed to the new coach from UCLA post-Crean. Don't sell them short.
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#2016887 - 04/17/17 04:38 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
dgless21 Online   mad
Local Deity

Registered: 03/27/05
Loc: Jefferson's West
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
Indiana has been a blueblood, but they are fading. Missed half of the tourney's the past 14 years and only reached the Sweet 16 three times when they have been in it.


Is Archie Miller really going to do anything to change that? I know he could win at Dayton, and he's got Sean Miller as a brother...what is he going to do to improve them?

He kept the 3 Crean guys committed, but they have a pretty weak class, IMO.
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#2016890 - 04/17/17 08:57 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: dgless21]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: dgless21
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
Indiana has been a blueblood, but they are fading. Missed half of the tourney's the past 14 years and only reached the Sweet 16 three times when they have been in it.


Is Archie Miller really going to do anything to change that? I know he could win at Dayton, and he's got Sean Miller as a brother...what is he going to do to improve them?

He kept the 3 Crean guys committed, but they have a pretty weak class, IMO.

1952- KU & Indiana are ranked similar for 2017 247 composite rankings. Don't think that's weak
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Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2016892 - 04/17/17 09:45 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: KUCO_VOC]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: KUCO_VOC
Originally Posted By: dgless21
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
Indiana has been a blueblood, but they are fading. Missed half of the tourney's the past 14 years and only reached the Sweet 16 three times when they have been in it.


Is Archie Miller really going to do anything to change that? I know he could win at Dayton, and he's got Sean Miller as a brother...what is he going to do to improve them?

He kept the 3 Crean guys committed, but they have a pretty weak class, IMO.

1952- KU & Indiana are ranked similar for 2017 247 composite rankings. Don't think that's weak


I'm talking about what Indiana has done the past 14 years and that is considerably less than what they've done in years past. I don't have a clue as to what they might do this next year. If they have a great year, that is fine, but to be a true blueblood they will have to not only have a great year next year, they will have to continue to consistently do so. That's why UK, KU and UNC are truly bluebloods, they have been basically consistently good across many years. That's why they are a ways out ahead of the rest of the pack. I have to admit that I don't pay much attention to Indiana because I really don't have much interest in them, particularly the past 14 years or so. Now while Knight was there he at least kept things quite interesting. It has been 35 years since they've won a national championship.

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#2016894 - 04/17/17 11:50 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Indiana will never recover its former glory. The B1G is horrible.
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I'm the slickest they is
I'm the quickest they is
Did I say I'm the slickest they is?

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