Page 1 of 25 1 2 3 ... 24 25 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#2016578 - 04/03/17 11:10 PM Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/18/08
It really irks me how some smack so hard on Self as being a bad NCAA Tourney coach. The record says differently! I've updated some Tourney stats posted a year ago and have added information to, now for the past 14 years, the time that Self has been at Kansas, for five of the top active coaches: Self, Calipari, Coach K and Roy, plus Izzo as some consider him a great tourney coach:

Games won/loss:
Self -- 33-13
Cal.-- 40-11 (Including 5 wins vacated by NCAA)
C. K.--31-12
Roy -- 43-10
Izzo -- 28-14

Winning percentage:
Self -- .717
Cal -- .784 (.778 excl. 5 wins vacated by NCAA)
C.K.-- .721
Roy -- .808
Izzo -- .667
Four coaches are above .700 which is nothing to sneeze at (Izzo below .700).

Years in the Tourney the past 14 years:
Self -- 14
Cal -- 12 (including one year vacated by NCAA)
C.K.-- 14
Roy -- 13
Izzo -- 14
Calipari went to the NIT twice and Roy once during this time period. NITs do not reflect well upon a resume unless you're TCU. And Cal had a year vacated, again a bad reflection.

Championships won:
Self -- 1
Cal -- 1
C.K.-- 2
Roy -- 3
Izzo-- 0
Some say championships are what count. In this time period, three (except for Izzo) are within one of each other, with Roy stepping up to a lead of two over Self and Cal. That gives him a slight edge over the others.

The furthest each coach has gone each year in the tournament:
Coach–Champs–F. 2—F. 4–E. 8–S. 16–R. 32–R. 64
Self............1.........1........0.......5.......2.......3.........2
Cal.............1.........2........2.......4.......1.......2.........0
Coach K.....2.........0........1.......1.......5.......2.........3
Roy............3.........1........1........3......3.......2..........0
Izzo............0.........1........3........1......3.......3..........3
(Roy@KU...0.........2........2........1......4.......5..........0 –14 years)

Another measure is how many times did a coach not make the tournament, leave the tournament during the first three rounds or make it into one of the final three rounds?

Coach — final 3–First 3–Didn’t make T.
Self ............ 7 .......... 7 .............. 0
Cal ............. 9 ...........3 .............. 2
Coach K ..... 4 ........ 10 .............. 0
Roy ............ 8 .......... 5 .............. 1
Izzo ............ 5 .......... 9 .............. 0
(Roy@ KU... 5 .......... 9 .............. 0)

Let the record speak for itself, Self measures up well with the other four coaches. Yes, we would liked to have seen him do better. But the fans of the other teams would also like to have seen their coach/team do better. Each of these coaches have had similar equally good and bad tournaments. The bottom line--Self is NOT a bad NCAA Tourney coach when compared to these other four top notch coaches. When you throw in the season records, Self measures up even better, top # of wins, top win %, top conf. titles and 2nd in conf. tourney wins. It shows that he is a top notch coach.

Season Records:
Coach----Won/Loss—%– Conf. Titles–Conf. Tourney
Self..........416—87....827.........13..................7
Cal...........394—90....814...........9..................8 (incl. vac. record)
Coach K...409—97....808...........3..................6
Roy..........400-115.....777...........8..................3
Izzo..........356-156.....693..........3..................3
(Roy/KU...418-101.....805...........9..................4 – 15 years)

Coaches with top percentage of wins for all seasons with over 550 total wins to date from official NCAA records:
Rupp ........ .822 Started at Kentucky
Wooden .... .804 Two years at Indiana St. then UCLA
Williams ... .786 Started at Kansas
Tarkanian . .784 All in non major power conferences (3)
Smith ....... .776 Started at UNC
Calipari .... .773 UMass, Memphis, Kentucky
Self ......... .764 ORU, Tulsa, Illinois, Kansas (lst 2 rebuilders)
Coach K .. .764 Five years at Army then Duke

No coach began in as big a hole as Self at ORU, a major rebuilding job as was Tulsa. Remove just his first two season, 16-38 and he would have a .798 win percentage for 3rd place to date. Playing 3 games per year for the next 10-12 years and winning at his current rate at Kansas (.827), Self would either tie Tarkanian or move slightly ahead of him. Roy and coach K percentages aren’t going to change much. Calipari’s very well could go up (three years older than Self).

Final Thoughts – Anyone willing to trade Roy’s KU record, season or tourney, with Bill’s? I wouldn’t! In spite of our tremendous basketball tradition, second to none, KU probably has a slight recruiting disadvantage with UK, UNC and Duke. This is due primarily to location. Don’t shoot me, I’m a died in the wool Kansan, but my honest opinion. Would any of the other coaches have done better at KU than Self during the season or tournament? Roy didn’t. Doubt if Cal, K and Izzo would have either. And the icing on the cake – Self is now a Hall of Fame Coach! He joins the list along with the other four we’ve been comparing. Bottom line, Self is a top notch coach and a rare jewel of a coach. We are very fortunate to have him.

Top
#2016579 - 04/03/17 11:17 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Online   content
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Uggh. Who you trying to convince? Yourself. Everybody knows Bill is a great coach who unfortunately sucks in Elite 8 games be it bad luck...cold shooting...nerves..whatever..No need to make an essay type post to prove a needless point. Is this what happens when one gets ancient. Rambling on trying to prove already known facts.
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

Top
#2016581 - 04/03/17 11:34 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Online   content
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Oh and Bill never coached Indiana. ..lol
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

Top
#2016582 - 04/03/17 11:59 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Uggh. Who you trying to convince? Yourself. Everybody knows Bill is a great coach who unfortunately sucks in Elite 8 games be it bad luck...cold shooting...nerves..whatever..No need to make an essay type post to prove a needless point. Is this what happens when one gets ancient. Rambling on trying to prove already known facts.


You must spend more time on another board other than this one. I've seen numerous times different ones on this board putting down Coach Self as not being a good tournament coach. I guess your phogy brain has a tough time reading anything over five lines long. Sorry about the Indiana thing, that was just one of those things that happens to anyone trying to put something together. I know that it was Illinois and have changed it. Don't forget to take your fish oil, it might help your phogy brain. smile

Top
#2016589 - 04/04/17 03:38 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Online   content
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
You're the one that needs the fish oil. I am the one that caught your mistake,. And who outside of West and maybe one other complains about Bill's tournament failures around here. I know the local yokels have to pump up themselves about all things Kansas for that warm fuzzy feeling. Really outside of KU basketball the state ain't got much going on. That's why they call it flyover country. Try going on a vacation and quit obsessing about Bill's greatness. Bottom line in as far as closing the deal tournament wise. Roy owns him.
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

Top
#2016592 - 04/04/17 07:14 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Actually J1952 posts here were very informative to see the greats in the college game coaching wise. Keep it up for us folks who read the things!

Bill Self can coach here even with a geographical recruiting disadvantage by N C, Duke.
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

Top
#2016593 - 04/04/17 09:23 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Online   content
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
God..power surge just wiped out a lengthy post. In short I actually appreciated 52's lengthy post. It was very informative. .I just don't find it necessary to validate Self's excellent coaching resume either regular season or post season.
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

Top
#2016594 - 04/04/17 11:39 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952

Another measure is how many times did a coach not make the tournament, leave the tournament during the first three rounds or make it into one of the final three rounds?


No it isn't. You are cherry picking data to fit your pre-determined conclusions. The tournament is made up of 3 4-team mini tournaments. Success is measured by how many weekends you win.

The proper metrics are:

Sweet 16 berths
Final Four berths
National Championships

Making the Elite 8 only means a team made it past the FIRST weekend threshold - not very impressive.
_________________________
I'm the slickest they is
I'm the quickest they is
Did I say I'm the slickest they is?

Top
#2016595 - 04/04/17 12:27 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Online   content
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Yeah making an E8 sucks ...only 60 other tournament qualified teams don't even get to that point.


Edited by PHOGUSHER (04/04/17 12:27 PM)
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

Top
#2016596 - 04/04/17 01:49 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
vikingbomber Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 12/06/05
Loc: Far, Far Away
Self has won a lot of NCAA tournament games with KU, no question. Has he underperformed against expectations? No question.

To get to an Elite Eight game, you go 3-0. If you lose, you're 3-1 obviously, so a winning percentage of .750. Yahoo. By definition, you can only lose once in a one-and-done tournament. But how many times has KU lost on or before the Elite Eight with a top 4 team (ie, a 1 seed)? Or simply just lost to a lower seed?

2004: KU held seed. 3-0 versus lower seeds. 0-1 versus higher seed. Met expectations.

2005: KU lost to a lower seed. 0-1. Did not meet expectations.

2006: KU lost to a lower seed. 0-1. Did not meet expectations.

2007: KU held seed. 3-0 versus lower seeds. 0-1 versus higher seed. Met expectations.

2008: KU went 4-0 versus lower seeds. 2-0 versus equal seeds. Exceeded expectations.

2009: KU held seed. 2-0 versus lower seeds. 0-1 versus higher seed. Met expectations.

2010: KU lost to a lower seed. 1-1. Did not meet expectations.

2011: KU lost to a lower seed. 3-1. Did not meet expectations.

2012: KU went 3-0 versus lower seeds. 2-1 versus higher seeds. Exceeded expectations.

2013: KU lost to a lower seed. 2-1. Did not meet expectations.

2014: KU lost to a lower seed. 1-1. Did not meet expectations.

2015: KU lost to a lower seed. 1-1. Did not meet expectations.

2016: KU lost to a lower seed. 3-1. Did not meet expectations.

2017: KU lost to a lower seed. 3-1. Did not meet expectations.

Self is a great coach, but a top-notch tournament coach? No, he is not.

Top
#2016597 - 04/04/17 01:59 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: vikingbomber]
MICHHAWK Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/29/02
Loc: Port Huron MI
HCBS is one of the top 5 active coaches in college basketball. Considering how many there are, top 5 is pretty good.

Top
#2016598 - 04/04/17 02:34 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: vikingbomber]
dgless21 Offline
Local Deity

Registered: 03/27/05
Loc: Lawrence Beer Co.
Originally Posted By: vikingbomber
Self is a great coach, but a top-notch tournament coach? No, he is not.


I guess that depends on your definition of "top-notch."

He wins 70% of his games in the tournament which ranks 6th amongst active college coaches.

K, Roy, Cal, Pitino, Izzo...then Self.
_________________________


Hail to thee our Alma Mater, hail to old KU!

Top
#2016599 - 04/04/17 02:34 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: PHOGUSHER]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Yeah making an E8 sucks ...only 60 other tournament qualified teams don't even get to that point.


lol

Nowhere did I insinuate that it "sucks." Learn to read.
_________________________
I'm the slickest they is
I'm the quickest they is
Did I say I'm the slickest they is?

Top
#2016600 - 04/04/17 02:36 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Bill Self is a mid-major coach. He dominates the regular season in a crappy conference and then gets schooled when he has to face real competition in the tournament.
_________________________
I'm the slickest they is
I'm the quickest they is
Did I say I'm the slickest they is?

Top
#2016601 - 04/04/17 03:02 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: dgless21]
vikingbomber Offline
Baby Jay

Registered: 12/06/05
Loc: Far, Far Away
As I pointed out, you can go 3-1 in the tournament and lose to a lower seed in the E8, and have a .750 winning percentage. That doesn't mean you've had a good tournament.

Originally Posted By: dgless21
Originally Posted By: vikingbomber
Self is a great coach, but a top-notch tournament coach? No, he is not.


I guess that depends on your definition of "top-notch."

He wins 70% of his games in the tournament which ranks 6th amongst active college coaches.

K, Roy, Cal, Pitino, Izzo...then Self.

Top
Page 1 of 25 1 2 3 ... 24 25 >

Preview