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#2016711 - 04/07/17 07:20 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: bigdogjac]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
When jayhawk_4_life2 said, “Roy won 0 at KU.. has had a great run at UNC.. but I don't know if any of those top 5-10 coaches can say they own any of the others!!!”, it made me wonder how the five we’ve been talking about stacked up against each other in head to head competition. I made a chart to show such. These figures are based on the last 14 years. I tried hard to make this 100% accurate, but I don’t guarantee that it is.

Coach . . Self . . . Cal . . C. K. . .Roy . . Izzo . . .Record
Self . . . . ///// . . . 2-3 . . . 2-1 . . . 3-0 . . . 3-4 . . . 10 - 8
Cal . . . . .3-2 . . . ///// . . . 0-2 . . . 5-3 . . . 1-1 . . . .9 - 8
C. K. . . . 1-2. . . . 2-0 . . .///// . . 13-17 . . .8-1 . . .24 -20
Roy . . . . 0-3. . . . 3-5 . .17-13 . . .///// . . . 6-0 . . .26 -21
Izzo . . . . 4-3. . . . 1-1 . . .1-8 . . . .0-6 . . .///// . . . .6 -18

You can make your own interpretations, but I can see saying that Self own’s Roy, Cal own’s no one, Coach K own’s Cal and Izzo, Roy own’s Izzo and Izzo own’s no one. Roy and Coach K are the only ones in the same conference so they meet often. The "Record" column I've added is their overall wins/losses against the other four coaches. Looks pretty even except for Izzo.

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#2016716 - 04/08/17 11:05 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: bigdogjac]
MICHHAWK Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 08/29/02
Loc: Port Huron MI
Originally Posted By: bigdogjac
RW fell into wins at KU
RW fell into wins at UNC

Pretty plain to see who is the better coach.


I am not sure what you are trying to say here. What does "fell into" mean in your brain?

Both HCBS and HCRW are on the list of top 5 active college basketball coaches.

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#2016718 - 04/08/17 11:49 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: MICHHAWK]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: MICHHAWK
Originally Posted By: bigdogjac
RW fell into wins at KU
RW fell into wins at UNC

Pretty plain to see who is the better coach.


I am not sure what you are trying to say here. What does "fell into" mean in your brain?

Both HCBS and HCRW are on the list of top 5 active college basketball coaches.

I believe what Bigdog is saying is that while Self started out with two rebuilding programs at ORU and Tulsa and took over a good but not great program at Illinois and turned all three into strong winning programs, Roy started out with two top notch programs at KU and UNC.

No doubt that Roy had to have the where-with-all to continue keeping both programs at a top notch level but he did have a running start to keep them great, thus, wins, in a sense, fell into his lap because of where he started. Self had to really dig deep to reach his wins and create winning programs. Self winning at KU was a continuation of his previous winning ways. Some might say Self is the better coach because of what he has had to overcome at three of his stops.

Both coaches are top notch coaches, of that there is no doubt.

Some of us have unique ways of how we phrase things. You probably understood what Bigdog was saying but just wanted to get a bit under his skin. However it is quite possible that I am misunderstanding both of you.



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#2016721 - 04/08/17 05:56 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Sometimes Jim West is right...you stupid Kansas farm boys spin it your ways, Roy took over KU after Larry landed them in probation, Not allowed in the NCAA Tournament and minus a few schollies, What Roy pulled off getting KU to 2 Final 4s in his first 5 years at KU is miraculous. Actually trumping Bill. Accept reality outside of a few losses straight up with Bill ..Roy is every bit as good and with superior NCAA Tournament results. Now go milk the cows ya hick.
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

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#2016722 - 04/08/17 06:48 PM Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
Test

I had a virus, all better now. Computer virus that is.
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2016724 - 04/09/17 12:00 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Sometimes Jim West is right...you stupid Kansas farm boys spin it your ways, Roy took over KU after Larry landed them in probation, Not allowed in the NCAA Tournament and minus a few schollies, What Roy pulled off getting KU to 2 Final 4s in his first 5 years at KU is miraculous. Actually trumping Bill. Accept reality outside of a few losses straight up with Bill ..Roy is every bit as good and with superior NCAA Tournament results. Now go milk the cows ya hick.


I'd like to see you try and raise the bountiful crops the, "stupid Kansas farm boys," are able to raise and help feed our nation. It's certainly not a task for anyone stupid so I guess that eliminates you from even trying. smile

Roy was handed a bad situation as the result of Brown's actions. But he did inherit a decent team left over by Brown, he inherited a great tradition and he only lost one scholarship, not "a few scollies" as you stated. It did put a bit of a damper on his recruiting for one year but he was able to get Adonis Jordan and also got Steve Woodberry. I don't believe Roy inherited anything like Bill did at ORU. In the previous nine years ORU only had two winning seasons and in the previous season had a 5-22 record. Bill had a lot to overcome in his first gig.

I was only trying to give an explanation of what I thought Bigdog was saying. However, neither of us said anything about Roy being a bad coach. In fact I said that both Roy and Self are great coaches. But don't try and make the spin that Bill had an easier task than Roy in their first gigs. He definitely didn't! And when you compare Roy's NCAA tournament results at Kansas with Bill's results at Kansas, he definitely doesn't have a superior record. Similar, yes, superior, no, Roy never got a championship and Bill has. And Bill definitely has a more superior season record at KU than Roy (.827 average wins to Roy's .805 at KU and .776 at UNC).

PS Do you even know how to milk a cow city slicker? grin My dad would have had a hay day with your bumbling at the farm. laugh

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#2016725 - 04/09/17 03:01 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
JimWest Offline
))<>((

Registered: 11/29/12
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
PS Do you even know how to milk a cow city slicker? grin My dad would have had a hay day with your bumbling at the farm. laugh


Yeah, because performing manual labor on a farm is something to aspire to. lol

Even setting foot on a farm indicates failure in life.
_________________________
I'm the slickest they is
I'm the quickest they is
Did I say I'm the slickest they is?

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#2016726 - 04/09/17 07:59 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: JimWest]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: JimWest
Originally Posted By: Jayhawk1952
PS Do you even know how to milk a cow city slicker? grin My dad would have had a hay day with your bumbling at the farm. laugh


Yeah, because performing manual labor on a farm is something to aspire to. lol

Even setting foot on a farm indicates failure in life.


That's about as dumb of a statement as I've heard in a long time. It shows your ignorance concerning a farm as well as manual labor. Farm life today is a long cry from what it used to be. It has become quite a high tech business. This includes agriculture farming as well as dairy and livestock farming. Without the smarts needed to understand this and the ability to adapt to it, you won't make it as a farmer. And when I say, "you," I am including YOU. Without the farm industry, our nation would be in a sorry state. I defy anyone on this board to say otherwise.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with manual labor. Those involved in manual labor are the backbone of our nation. Without manual labor you don't have food to eat, milk to drink, a house to live in, a place to work no matter what your job is. You don't have appliances in your home to cook with, clean with, you don't even have plumbing for water, gas or electricity. You don't have a car, or gas to run it it or oil for the engine. You don't have anyone to repair any of this stuff. You don't have highways to drive on or airplanes to fly in, not even trains or buses for transportation. You don't have a computer to write your drivel on, nor a smartphone, nor even a phone. In fact you don't even have a pencil or pen to write with or paper to write on. Without manual labor you end back up in the cave you were born in and are forced to do a whole lot of manual labor just to survive. You end up making your own weapons from trees and probably in your case swinging from the branches of those trees and the vines hanging in them.

The fact is you don't even have sporting events as we do today because there would be no one to make the equipment needed for the sporting events and not even players to participate in the team activity as that would involve a lot of manual labor.

You need to quit thinking so highly of yourself as you are nothing without the help and labor of others. Quit thinking that you are so infallible in your thinking as only popes and dopes are allowed to believe that.

If I sound upset, it is because I am. Sorry if I offended anyone, but if I did, you needed to be.

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#2016727 - 04/09/17 08:39 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
Yes 52 ...my grandfather owned a diary. Bailed hay on his 120 acre farm until 14 yrs of age. But I wanted out of flyover country. Wanted to see a bit of the world. Joined the military and afterwards worked as a defense contractor for the Navy.

Repaired radar and sonar systems mostly on nuclear submarines for about 27 yrs. So sure I can milk a cow ...can you repair a submarines radar or sonar. My efforts kept the US Navy ships in readiness to deter enemy threats. That kinda trumps milking a cow or growing crops. But actually I respect farmers. I just like spinning you up and that's easy to do..

As far as Roy is concerned I think he did more with less talent at KU . The 91 and 93 F4 teams weren't near as talented as most of Bill's teams but accomplished more. I say both coaches are about equal.


Edited by PHOGUSHER (04/09/17 08:41 AM)
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

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#2016729 - 04/09/17 09:36 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
AlOerter Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 10/02/13
Everyone has their role in society to make it function. Higher pay or greater skill doesn't make one person of greater worth than another. Just like JW's role on this board is to get a rise out of people and enjoy watching people scramble to refute him. I suspect that he is not that firmly convicted of many of the things he posts on here. (I do not personally object to the discussion - that is what we're on here for)


As far as Bill Self being a top notch coach, a great many coaches, sports writers, and players past and present think that he is. I will trust the opinions of people who know far more about basketball than I do.
_________________________
" I used to have power. Now old age is creeping up on me." Chief Dan George

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#2016731 - 04/09/17 10:48 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
bigdogjac Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 05/11/10
Loc: Oklahoma
1952, Thanks for explaining my post. Great job. I threw that out there for our fellow posters to think about.

Some are better thinkers than others! LOL!

Another fact is that when you become head coach at either KU or UNC, many potential recruits already have both schools on their lists. Therefore success can become much easier and quicker. Roy never had to overcome what Bill did.

How smart was Bill when he moved from Ill to KU. Very smart, he already knew this.
_________________________
Tomorrow may be too late--Live Today!

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#2016732 - 04/09/17 10:52 AM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
KUCO_VOC Offline
KU1980

Registered: 05/22/08
Loc: Denver, CO
It will be a long time before we see another Bill Self era come along. I endured the Owens years simply wishing we could be what we have become today.
_________________________
Kansas football will rise again (Coach Don Fambrough style)

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#2016734 - 04/09/17 02:17 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
Yes 52 ...my grandfather owned a diary. Bailed hay on his 120 acre farm until 14 yrs of age. But I wanted out of flyover country. Wanted to see a bit of the world. Joined the military and afterwards worked as a defense contractor for the Navy.

Repaired radar and sonar systems mostly on nuclear submarines for about 27 yrs. So sure I can milk a cow ...can you repair a submarines radar or sonar. My efforts kept the US Navy ships in readiness to deter enemy threats. That kinda trumps milking a cow or growing crops. But actually I respect farmers. I just like spinning you up and that's easy to do..

As far as Roy is concerned I think he did more with less talent at KU . The 91 and 93 F4 teams weren't near as talented as most of Bill's teams but accomplished more. I say both coaches are about equal.


Why are you able to milk a cow? Because you were taught how. Why are you able to repair radar and sonar systems? Because you were trained how. Can I repair radar and sonar systems? No. Why? Because I was never trained how. Could I learn? I have no doubt. There's not much of anything I can't do if I apply myself and learn how to do it. I'm sure that's true of most of us. I think you're statement about your work in the military and defense contracting trumping milking a cow or raising crops is a bit out of line or did those military and defense contract personnel not ever eat? I assume they surely did and were extremely glad they could. Who do you think made that possible? Anytime any one person or group of persons think that they are better than others they've really gotten their thinking out of whack. We all really do depend upon each other, and that includes all of us depending on the farmers. So I think you probably spoke before you thought.

The thing about learning how to milk a cow is that doing so doesn't make you a farmer, not even remotely close. In fact, the farms that I'm aware of in western Kansas don't even have milk cows, chickens or pigs unless they specialize in those areas. Most of the farms in crop raising work 2,000 - 6,000 acres or more. I'm talking about individual farmers and not incorporative farm businesses. They work with tractors and combines that cost $100,000 - 300,000 and that's not including the implements. It takes a lot of know how to keep all of that running smoothly and staying above water economically.

I appreciate you service to our country and your later support of it through defense contracting. But we wouldn't be the nation we are today without all of the other kinds of businesses and manufacturing which includes a whole lot of manual labor. I suspect that this board is full of people who are or have been involved in manual labor. I salute each and every one. They have my respect and gratitude.

I have no problem with you being on this board as I've learned to understand you some better. I know that you like to try and get under someone's skin and upset them. But also have learned that your bark is a lot worse than your bite and you're not nearly as disagreeable as you sometimes sound. I will have to admit, though, that I was a bit disappointed in your lining up with JW.

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#2016739 - 04/09/17 04:31 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: Jayhawk1952]
PHOGUSHER Offline
Original AFH Gangsta

Registered: 11/01/05
Loc: Western Kansas Hinderlands
No...you old folk have no concept of modern military technology. It's not like operating are programed irrigation system. And lol. 100000 to 300000 dollar farm equipment. Heck one of the sonar systems I was responsible for cost the neighborhood of 4 million dollars.

I did over 500 job evolutions with such equipment over 25 yrs plus numerous other duties that kept flyover country farmers protected from the Communist threat and threats from other countries. Don't even try comparing the two jobs. I don't disrespect your profession but don't dare under estimate what I did...got it. And please expand your narrow minded views of things. I don't like Jimbo West but I laugh at his posts because he can easily spin local yokels like yourself up and you take the bait every time. Quit doing that.
_________________________
No more .net hate. Just here to share incredible special moments with my Jayhawk brethren.

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#2016740 - 04/09/17 04:53 PM Re: Self – A Top Notch Tourney/Season Coach [Re: PHOGUSHER]
Jayhawk1952 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 01/18/08
Originally Posted By: PHOGUSHER
No...you old folk have no concept of modern military technology. It's not like operating are programed irrigation system. And lol. 100000 to 300000 dollar farm equipment. Heck one of the sonar systems I was responsible for cost the neighborhood of 4 million dollars.

I did over 500 job evolutions with such equipment over 25 yrs plus numerous other duties that kept flyover country farmers protected from the Communist threat and threats from other countries. Don't even try comparing the two jobs. I don't disrespect your profession but don't dare under estimate what I did...got it. And please expand your narrow minded views of things. I don't like Jimbo West but I laugh at his posts because he can easily spin local yokels like yourself up and you take the bait every time. Quit doing that.


Don't believe I was disrespecting what you did one iota. But the bottom line of what I was saying is, if you and your people don't eat, you don't produce, either as a military or a defense contractor. Our dependency upon each other today is so inner woven that none can do without the others.

I once swore off ever responding to JW once. But he's so much like an disgusting,evil rattlesnake slithering his way throughout this board that you just have to want to try and cut off his poisonous head once in a while. smile

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