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#1943750 - 08/10/13 12:05 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it * [Re: Shirley]
seahawk Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 02/03/05
Come on, guys.

A cop with a history of using excessive force is upset that a kid committing a 2nd degree misdemeanor--for which he wouldn't even be prosecuted--can outrun him and in all likelihood tasers the kid to death?

There are plenty of decent cops who've no doubt been laid off who could take this guy's place. And should.

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#1943752 - 08/10/13 12:16 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
1985hawk Offline
Moderator-Retired

Registered: 04/24/03
Loc: Back here
As long as the policemen in this matter were following protocol, I dont see any wrong doing. Using a taser is not considered to be deadly force.
_________________________
The simplest explanation is usually the right one. Albert Einstein

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#1943762 - 08/10/13 12:52 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
JAHWobbly Offline
Posts: 10,324

Registered: 05/20/03
Loc: PDX
>>Using a taser is not considered to be deadly force.

Unless it kills ya.
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#1943764 - 08/10/13 01:18 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
seahawk Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 02/03/05
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#1943766 - 08/10/13 01:23 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
1985hawk Offline
Moderator-Retired

Registered: 04/24/03
Loc: Back here
That seems to back up the police officers.

Intent has everything to do with whether there was wrong doing on the part of the officers. Had the intended to harm the teen, they could have chosen to use their gun instead of the usually less lethal taser.

This is an unfortunate incident but there was no intent to kill, only to subdue


Edited by 1985hawk (08/10/13 01:23 PM)
_________________________
The simplest explanation is usually the right one. Albert Einstein

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#1947904 - 09/06/13 01:49 AM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: 1985hawk]
jayshep Offline
wolfhunter

Registered: 04/07/04
Several things: I haven't posted on here in quite some time, but felt the need to chime in on this one. I'm a police officer in the second largest department in the metro (I work in the 'hood) and a KU grad. Hopefully I can add a little insight from the inside that some of you need to hear.

First of all...comparing this in any way to the Martin incident is irresponsible and ridiculous. Absolutely no factual similarities at all. Thank God that this was Hispanic on Hispanic or idiots like Shirley would be race-baiting. Again. When race played no part. Listening, Shirley?

Stating or implying that this was a "death penalty" without a jury trial is, again, silly. Do you really think the officer wanted to kill the young misdemeanor violator? Seriously. The kid died, and that is a horrible fact. I'm not a huge proponent of the taser, and I think it's used too often in place of trained, rehearsed hand to hand defensive tactics in some departments. With that being said, I've tased several "bad guys" in a couple of different situations. Generally speaking, a taser is "prettier" (looks better on video) than multiple baton strikes (same force level) or multiple empty hand or knee strikes. Less likely to elicit the "Rodney King" reaction from the community regarding excessive force. When effective, it also greatly reduces injuries to officers when involved in a fight with a "bad guy". I've been to the hospital on a handful of occasions after physically fighting suspects that weren't armed. Personally, I don't like to use it but it's a great tool to have when outmatched by the guy you're paid to take to jail.

Police officers and the great majority of departments use the 1+1 theory when it comes to use of force. We escalate our force options one above the force used to resist arrest. In other words, if a bad guy is resisting using empty hands (pulling away, running, punching, kicking, biting), we can use an intermediate weapon (baton, OC spray, taser). If they have a weapon (rock, broken pool cue, knife, gun) we may escalate to deadly force. The "force continuum" also takes into account the "totality of the circumstances", which include subject size and apparent ability and the officer size, gender and apparent ability, among other things. In other words, if a 300lb man high on PCP is resisting with force an attempted arrest by a 120lb female officer, she will be able to escalate to a higher level of force more quickly than I, as a 200lb man and former wrestler, will be able to.

As for the poster that questioned if Miami police have better things to do than arrest a graffiti "artist"...yes, I'm sure they do. So when I see someone slashing your tires (ie damaging property), I'm supposed to turn a blind eye? And when that person runs when I confront them like I'm sworn to do, I shouldn't give chase? And when that person runs at me when cornered, I'm supposed to assume they have benevolent intentions and let them past? Tell my wife that when a guy kills me. "Hey, Ofc Jayshep assumed he was peaceful. Oh well!" In running, HE escalated the force option from empty hand (peaceful arrestee) to intermediate weapon (resisting arrestee). The taser is an intermediate weapon.

Most departments (and I'll admit, I have not read that department's general orders) require ordering EMS for the arrestee immediately after deploying the taser. Both for removal of the darts and for evaluation of the arrestee. The assertion of one of the kid's friends that the cops stood around and high fived after the event strike me as bullshit. My department is pretty macho, and I've never seen something like that happen. I'm not a rookie, I've been around for a few.

Somebody also stated that the offender wouldn't have been prosecuted for a misdemeanor. Is that straight from the mouth of your friend in the city prosecutor's office? Didn't think so.

I may or may not be on here in the next few days to answer any question or comments you all have, but I'll try. Please keep the doughnut jokes to a minimum.
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Only after "..great victory does 'Rockchalk Jayhawk, KU' float through the midnight air.."--1887

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#1947908 - 09/06/13 07:41 AM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
mtglite Offline
Dee-cent

Registered: 12/17/09
very well said. I for one respect the hell out of cops and the difficult job they have.
If I would be a cop I would be like Charles Bronson in Death Wish and just shoot everybody.

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#1947959 - 09/06/13 01:17 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: jayshep]
Astronaut Offline
Deep Thinker

Registered: 09/09/11
Loc: Wherever Deep Thinkers gather
Thanks.
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Check the transcript, Candy.

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#1948314 - 09/09/13 12:27 AM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: mtglite]
jayshep Offline
wolfhunter

Registered: 04/07/04
I appreciate the respect, mtglite. At times, I can identify with your statement about Charles Bronson. However, I've been in several situations where I should have pulled the trigger and did not, for a variety of reasons. For the most part, we have literally about a second to react to what's happening. Most of those situations I still have bad dreams about. The most recent critical incident I was involved in was documented extensively (although pretty inaccurately) by local media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAuvspj1hTQ
_________________________
Only after "..great victory does 'Rockchalk Jayhawk, KU' float through the midnight air.."--1887

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#1948325 - 09/09/13 08:47 AM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
minhin Offline
Uh Oh

Registered: 02/20/08
Loc: ...in the warm sun
Good to see you Jayshep. Thanks for the giving us a realistic look at the police side of this.
_________________________
"It isn't how fast a horse runs, it's how a horse runs fast" Appy

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#1948456 - 09/09/13 09:24 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: mtglite]
jahawker2004 Offline
Freethinker

Registered: 12/30/03
Loc: Wherever Freethinkers Gather
Originally Posted By: mtglite
very well said. I for one respect the hell out of cops and the difficult job they have.
If I would be a cop I would be like Charles Bronson in Death Wish and just shoot everybody.


Thank you for not becoming a cop.
_________________________
"Those Places (UNC, UCLA) Are Great, But There's No Place Like Kansas"
---Larry Brown to Bill Self.

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#1948458 - 09/09/13 09:33 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
1985hawk Offline
Moderator-Retired

Registered: 04/24/03
Loc: Back here
My advice in dealing with police is let them be in charge and dont indtimitate them. Put yourself at ease and let them take control. Turn your interior lights on and tell them in advance what you are going to do. They have a very difficult job and they deal with incredibly stupid and violent people so they are on edge

Do your best to put them at ease and you will be treated with respect. Be an [censored] and you wont be treated so nice. They are doing a job nobody likes but they are the wall between right and wrong. Be on the right side of that wall
_________________________
The simplest explanation is usually the right one. Albert Einstein

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#1948509 - 09/10/13 10:01 AM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
Phog1004 Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 03/17/10
Loc: KC
Good explanation Jayshep, and I appreciate what you guys do (even if Shirls and Seahawk don't)
_________________________
"The problem is, every time we think we are good, we remember we are Kansas State." -Will Cokeley

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#1948653 - 09/12/13 08:00 AM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
Shirley Offline
Pelvic Missionary

Registered: 03/17/05
She had it coming.

_________________________
I come from a long line of people who convinced others to sleep with them.

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#1948686 - 09/12/13 01:36 PM Re: Must've been wearing a hoodie, i.e., asking for it [Re: Shirley]
Phog1004 Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 03/17/10
Loc: KC
lol, Shirly loves Drunk Drivers and hates cops.....awesome
_________________________
"The problem is, every time we think we are good, we remember we are Kansas State." -Will Cokeley

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