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#147827 - 06/18/07 04:04 PM 61 or 73?
jaihaux Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/28/03
Loc: Overlook Hotel
With the Bonds/Aaron thing happening, I was wondering what number you still consider the single-season home run mark.

For me, it's still Roger Maris' 61. We all know Sosa and McGwire were juiced more than we'll ever know. Plus, McGwire and Sosa had 1/10th of the pressure that Maris did. For me, it's still 61.
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"Here's Johnny!"

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#147828 - 06/18/07 04:16 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jaihaux]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
In my heart it is 61, but as f'ed up as baseball is, they may as well screw up the record books too.
BTW, notice how skinny Sosa looks these days.
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#147829 - 06/18/07 04:34 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jammahawk]
larryb Offline
Gutter

Registered: 05/02/07
Loc: Work
Sosa will jack #600 in the next couple of nights. Very few of us cared that Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc. were juiced until MLB and a Federal Grand Jury started to care. It was the best story in Baseball since Cal Ripken. Blame MLB who allowed this and not the guys who stood to make multi millions and become heros by using roids.
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#147830 - 06/18/07 04:49 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: larryb]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
60
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#147831 - 06/18/07 04:51 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
larryb Offline
Gutter

Registered: 05/02/07
Loc: Work
I dislike Bonds but he just may be the greatest player in my life time with or with out the juice, cream, clear, whatever.
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Rock Chalk my brothers and sisters!

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#147832 - 06/18/07 05:19 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jdavis34 Offline
Pure Jayhawk

Registered: 02/15/07
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Quote:

60


... you don't even care for Maris?

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#147833 - 06/18/07 05:38 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jdavis34]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Quote:

Quote:

60


... you don't even care for Maris?




Ruth did it in 151 games. And had 137 walks to go with it.

Maris 161 games and 94 walks.

Give Ruth an extra 32 at bats and he would of hit more.

Now, Maris had a special season and is recognized as the true single season HR king. The total games played obviously isnt his fault.

Game for game Ruth is the single season king.
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it takes a nation of millions to hold us back

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#147834 - 06/18/07 05:40 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jdavis34 Offline
Pure Jayhawk

Registered: 02/15/07
Loc: Lawrence, KS
and what if A-Rod breaks it this year?

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#147835 - 06/18/07 05:51 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jdavis34]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Quote:

and what if A-Rod breaks it this year?




Than I would promote him. 162 games and over 73 hr's would be rather impressive.

Maris barely eeked by Ruth. 1 homerun seperated those two.

But if ARod smashed 73 in 162 that would be shattering what Ruth did. No admission to steroids or a dirty test would complete it.
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#147836 - 06/18/07 06:25 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
1985hawk Offline
Moderator-Retired

Registered: 04/24/03
Loc: Back here
Anyone seen the movie 61?

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#147837 - 06/18/07 06:43 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: 1985hawk]
rockchalk2305 Offline
Max Falkenstein

Registered: 03/14/05
Love the movie 61. I still accept 61 as the record.
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#147838 - 06/18/07 07:30 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: rockchalk2305]
WeDontNeedRush Offline
John Brown

Registered: 04/29/07
Loc: Boulder, CO
Lame. None of you have any proof other than second hand accounts from guys that aren't willing to reveal their sources. The whole concept is ridiculous. You don't get to pick and choose what YOU accept as the record.

The best line in this thread is that McGwire and Sosa had 1/10th of the pressure Maris did. First of all, you probably weren't but knee high to a grasshopper in 1961,so how do you know? Every generation wants to believe their heroes are the best that ever lived, so docs like 61 are always going to have a certain amount of generational bias. I'm not trying to discount Maris' accomplishment by any means.

Even though he was a Yankee and was going for Ruth's record, it was 1961. If anything, there was 1/10th (or less) media coverage and hype surrounding Maris. We are in the information age. Sosa and McGwire were all over television, radio, print, and the internet the entire summer. The "chase" was spun all over the place to generate interest in baseball. They were under a magnifying glass that no one in 1961 could even comprehend.

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#147839 - 06/18/07 07:42 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: larryb]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

Sosa will jack #600 in the next couple of nights. Very few of us cared that Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc. were juiced until MLB and a Federal Grand Jury started to care. It was the best story in Baseball since Cal Ripken. Blame MLB who allowed this and not the guys who stood to make multi millions and become heros by using roids.




I don't know about you, but I cared. Anyone who thought these guys weren't juiced up are naive. Anyone who doesn't think it is a performance enhancer is a moron. Anyone who needs a politician to motivate them into caring is pathetic.
MLB deserves it's share of blame for allowing this to continue, the PLAYERS need to accept even more blame for doing it.
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#147840 - 06/18/07 07:44 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: WeDontNeedRush]
jdavis34 Offline
Pure Jayhawk

Registered: 02/15/07
Loc: Lawrence, KS
WeDontNeedRush--- Guess what? Maris got death threats, okay? WHen Sosa and Marky were going for the record, they were receiving a love fest every night on ESPN and everywhere else. Ruth's wife didn't want Maris to break the record. Maris' family supported Mark through it all.

There is no doubt Maris and Aaron had more pressure than Ruth and McGwire and Sosa.

I'd say Bonds has had it the worst.... I don't think he deserves death threats, but I think he deserves to be booed because he is a jerk.

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#147841 - 06/18/07 07:45 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

60


... you don't even care for Maris?




Ruth did it in 151 games. And had 137 walks to go with it.

Maris 161 games and 94 walks.

Give Ruth an extra 32 at bats and he would of hit more.

Now, Maris had a special season and is recognized as the true single season HR king. The total games played obviously isnt his fault.

Game for game Ruth is the single season king.




The record is for number of homeruns hit in a single season. Period. Give Maris the credit he deserves for doing it under more pressure than any of us will probably ever be under while trying to perform our jobs.
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#147842 - 06/18/07 08:09 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jammahawk]
WeDontNeedRush Offline
John Brown

Registered: 04/29/07
Loc: Boulder, CO
Wow you people must be batsh*t crazy. So getting a death threat is the new litmus for being under pressure? You're off your rocker, kiddo. This just kills me, to be honest. You sentamentalists need a bit of a reality check. Oh that poor Maris, under so much pressure! Haha

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#147843 - 06/18/07 08:23 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jammahawk]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
154 Ruth v. 162 Maris.

All i'm sayin on a sidebar note is that Ruth would of smashed 61 had he had 8 extra games and around 30-40 more at bats.

But yeah, Maris was the rightful owner of the record before Bonds beat it. He still gets madd respect from me no doubt. Maris had a fabulous season and was on point that year.

And the fact that he was with The Yankees.

Here is a few salaries from that year.

1961 New York Yankees

Mickey Mantle $75,000.00
Yogi Berra $65,000.00
Roger Maris $42,000.00
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#147844 - 06/18/07 09:40 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jammahawk]
tyler Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/30/07
Loc: Lawrence
73

Innocent until proven guilty! Im saying Barry Bonds has it until they prove that he used steroids or some sorta of enhancement.
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#147845 - 06/18/07 10:10 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: tyler]
chiknbut Offline
Bowl Cut Boy

Registered: 09/01/04
Loc: JRP lunchroom

Agreed. The record is 73.

Steroids or not, baseball thrived during the Sosa-McGwire home run race. They asked for it and they got it. Baseball decided that they wanted to lie down with the dogs and sell their souls for the advertising dollars. Now they have to deal with the fleas.

I think 61 was legit. The rest of it is dirty. Dirty, but legal.

Show me anywhere in the rules of baseball that says that steroids were banned from the game. Until the big-wigs of baseball decide to take a stand, it will be 73.

And it will remind everyone of a time when the game was exciting. Exciting and extremely dirty.
_________________________
"You can't spell "sucked" without SEC."

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#147846 - 06/18/07 10:39 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: WeDontNeedRush]
jaihaux Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/28/03
Loc: Overlook Hotel
Quote:

Wow you people must be batsh*t crazy. So getting a death threat is the new litmus for being under pressure? You're off your rocker, kiddo. This just kills me, to be honest. You sentamentalists need a bit of a reality check. Oh that poor Maris, under so much pressure! Haha




I could be wrong, but if someone sent me a death threat because of something I was doing on my job, I think my stress would increase, and I think the pressure to keep doing what I was would increase.

Sosa and McGwire had nightly blow jobs by the media. Maris was in New York and ripped by the media daily. Even his own teammates wanted Mantle to break the record. He was booed when he hit home runs, while Sosa and McGwire were cheered in visiting ball parks. Opposing fans booed their own pitchers for throwing balls and walking the two. McGwire and Sosa were breaking a record hit by a non-Hall of Fame player. Maris was out to break the record of a man who may still be considered the greatest ever, a man who was loved not just in New York, but in every baseball city.

As far as Maris having eight extra games, I'd have to do some research to confirm this, but I thought Maris acutally had fewer plate appearances in 1961 than Ruth did in 1927.
_________________________
"Here's Johnny!"

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#147847 - 06/19/07 07:08 AM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jaihaux]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Maris had 590 plate appearances and Ruth had 540. But that does not matter. The record is for total of homeruns for the duration of the season.
There are so many other factors that can go into a homerun total, such as how the ball is made, size of the ballparks, how high the mound is. The fact is, Maris hit 61 and Ruth hit 60.
Ruth missed three games in '27, if he had played in them maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion, but he didn't.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

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#147848 - 06/19/07 07:11 AM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jaihaux]
jdavis34 Offline
Pure Jayhawk

Registered: 02/15/07
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Quote:

Quote:

Wow you people must be batsh*t crazy. So getting a death threat is the new litmus for being under pressure? You're off your rocker, kiddo. This just kills me, to be honest. You sentamentalists need a bit of a reality check. Oh that poor Maris, under so much pressure! Haha




I could be wrong, but if someone sent me a death threat because of something I was doing on my job, I think my stress would increase, and I think the pressure to keep doing what I was would increase.

Sosa and McGwire had nightly blow jobs by the media. Maris was in New York and ripped by the media daily. Even his own teammates wanted Mantle to break the record. He was booed when he hit home runs, while Sosa and McGwire were cheered in visiting ball parks. Opposing fans booed their own pitchers for throwing balls and walking the two. McGwire and Sosa were breaking a record hit by a non-Hall of Fame player. Maris was out to break the record of a man who may still be considered the greatest ever, a man who was loved not just in New York, but in every baseball city.

As far as Maris having eight extra games, I'd have to do some research to confirm this, but I thought Maris acutally had fewer plate appearances in 1961 than Ruth did in 1927.


Couldn't say it better.

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#147849 - 06/19/07 08:16 AM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jammahawk]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Quote:

Maris had 590 plate appearances and Ruth had 540. But that does not matter. The record is for total of homeruns for the duration of the season.
There are so many other factors that can go into a homerun total, such as how the ball is made, size of the ballparks, how high the mound is. The fact is, Maris hit 61 and Ruth hit 60.
Ruth missed three games in '27, if he had played in them maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion, but he didn't.




Forget bigger ball parks, higher mounds, balls that bounce off your chin or whatever else that has been modified. If they changed the rules now and stretched the season from 162 to 170 then how would we react to it?

Since Ichiro has the record for hits in a season with 262 how fair is it if in 2012 there were a total of 170 games played and someone edged him out by 1 hit to take the record? These five players who are 2,3,4 and 5 respectivly would of shattered that record had the rules stayed the same at 154 games:


George Sisler 257 1920
Lefty O'Doul 254 1929
Bill Terry 254 1930
Al Simmons 253 1925


It wasnt like Ruth missed 8 games cause he was in Disneyland or something. He missed them cause they were never there.
_________________________
it takes a nation of millions to hold us back

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#147850 - 06/19/07 08:38 AM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
Personally, I wouldn't react any differently to a 170 game season. The players play the games that their name is on the lineup card. The season is a marathon and many things happen durring the course of the season that have an effect on stats.
Maybe if Ruth didn't fill himself up on hot dogs and beer, he would have played in the three games he missed in '27.
The only injustice to lifetime statistics that I see, are guys like Ted Williams, Warren Spahn, Hank Greenberg and Joe DiMaggio that had chunks taken out of their careers because of WWII and Korean war service. We're talking 3-4-5 years. Now those guys have a legit gripe.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

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#147851 - 06/19/07 10:24 AM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jaihaux Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/28/03
Loc: Overlook Hotel
Quote:

Quote:

Maris had 590 plate appearances and Ruth had 540. But that does not matter. The record is for total of homeruns for the duration of the season.
There are so many other factors that can go into a homerun total, such as how the ball is made, size of the ballparks, how high the mound is. The fact is, Maris hit 61 and Ruth hit 60.
Ruth missed three games in '27, if he had played in them maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion, but he didn't.




Forget bigger ball parks, higher mounds, balls that bounce off your chin or whatever else that has been modified. If they changed the rules now and stretched the season from 162 to 170 then how would we react to it?

Since Ichiro has the record for hits in a season with 262 how fair is it if in 2012 there were a total of 170 games played and someone edged him out by 1 hit to take the record? These five players who are 2,3,4 and 5 respectivly would of shattered that record had the rules stayed the same at 154 games:


George Sisler 257 1920
Lefty O'Doul 254 1929
Bill Terry 254 1930
Al Simmons 253 1925


It wasnt like Ruth missed 8 games cause he was in Disneyland or something. He missed them cause they were never there.




Ruth also didn't play against black players, play in night games, fly coast to coast or play against specialized pitchers.
_________________________
"Here's Johnny!"

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#147852 - 06/19/07 11:26 AM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jaihaux]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Maris had 590 plate appearances and Ruth had 540. But that does not matter. The record is for total of homeruns for the duration of the season.
There are so many other factors that can go into a homerun total, such as how the ball is made, size of the ballparks, how high the mound is. The fact is, Maris hit 61 and Ruth hit 60.
Ruth missed three games in '27, if he had played in them maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion, but he didn't.




Forget bigger ball parks, higher mounds, balls that bounce off your chin or whatever else that has been modified. If they changed the rules now and stretched the season from 162 to 170 then how would we react to it?

Since Ichiro has the record for hits in a season with 262 how fair is it if in 2012 there were a total of 170 games played and someone edged him out by 1 hit to take the record? These five players who are 2,3,4 and 5 respectivly would of shattered that record had the rules stayed the same at 154 games:


George Sisler 257 1920
Lefty O'Doul 254 1929
Bill Terry 254 1930
Al Simmons 253 1925


It wasnt like Ruth missed 8 games cause he was in Disneyland or something. He missed them cause they were never there.




Ruth also didn't play against black players, play in night games, fly coast to coast or play against specialized pitchers.




In '27 New York traveled to Philadelphia, Washington, Boston, Chicago, St.Louis, Detroit, and Cleveland.

In '61 they traveled to Baltimore, Detroit, Washington, Minnesota, Los Angelas,K.C, Cleveland, and Boston.

Ruth's traveling back in 1927 was probablly more difficult than Maris' in 1961.

Night games were considered a luxury for the daytime player.

Tell me then, what lights-out black pitchers did Maris face in '61?
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#147853 - 06/19/07 12:02 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
One thing they both had in common, they were left handed hitters, that played in a ball park with a right field fence that has a little league distance.
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

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#147854 - 06/19/07 03:16 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jaihaux Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/28/03
Loc: Overlook Hotel
Quote:



Tell me then, what lights-out black pitchers did Maris face in '61?




I didn't say black pitchers. I said black players.
_________________________
"Here's Johnny!"

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#147855 - 06/19/07 03:45 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jaihaux]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Quote:

Quote:



Tell me then, what lights-out black pitchers did Maris face in '61?




I didn't say black pitchers. I said black players.




Right, and we are talking home runs not trying to steal second base on Josh Gibson.

What would a black position player other than a pitcher have to do with Ruth and his home runs?
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it takes a nation of millions to hold us back

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#147856 - 06/19/07 03:47 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
larryb Offline
Gutter

Registered: 05/02/07
Loc: Work
Here is something to ponder.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadaharu_Oh
_________________________
Rock Chalk my brothers and sisters!

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#147857 - 06/19/07 04:07 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: larryb]
jammahawk Offline
Prairie Warrior

Registered: 01/02/05
Loc: In the Corleone compound
How many lights out black pitchers did Oh play against?
_________________________
" Stay thirsty my friends ".

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#147858 - 06/19/07 04:26 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jammahawk]
larryb Offline
Gutter

Registered: 05/02/07
Loc: Work
LOL! He went up against a bunch of Dice K Matsuzaka's.
_________________________
Rock Chalk my brothers and sisters!

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#147859 - 06/19/07 04:39 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: JHAWX75]
jaihaux Offline
Wilt Chamberlain

Registered: 01/28/03
Loc: Overlook Hotel
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



Tell me then, what lights-out black pitchers did Maris face in '61?




I didn't say black pitchers. I said black players.




Right, and we are talking home runs not trying to steal second base on Josh Gibson.

What would a black position player other than a pitcher have to do with Ruth and his home runs?




The point was that the game Maris played in was different than Ruth's. Different, probably more difficult. But bottom line is a season's a season.

How come nobody complained during Ichiro's run at George Sisler? Or George Brett/Tony Gwynn going after .400?
_________________________
"Here's Johnny!"

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#147860 - 06/19/07 05:28 PM Re: 61 or 73? [Re: jaihaux]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
I'm definitly not complaining. In fact I have a Yankee shrine that is dedicated to Maris and his 61 yards.
My point was isolated soley on games played and how Maris had a few extra games than Ruth. That's all.

Going after a batting title is way different than chasing a HR title. Once you get to, say, 59 home runs you can't go backwards. The next number will be 60, then 61. But, you can be .398 in the first inning of game 160 and either take a dive further or rise ahead of .400 by 161 and 162. Ted Williams could of sat the last day to protect his .406 avg. but decided to play.
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