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#12058 - 12/01/06 01:04 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: hail2oldku]
Ike Offline
Tigger Hater

Registered: 11/04/06
Loc: Indiana
You guys are strange. They are AWESOME!
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Good better best, never let it rest until your good is better and your better is best!

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#12059 - 12/01/06 01:29 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
I'd like to step in here and take the middle ground on Jeter. On the one hand, he is an excellent hitter. In fact, he might be an even better hitter than his numbers allow for because he plays in Yankee Stadium, a notorious pitcher's park. Jeter's career OPS+ (that's his OPS adjusted for the run-scoring era he played in and his home ballpark) is 123. That means he's 23% better as a hitter than the average of the leagues he has played in. There are only two Hall of Fame shortstops with better career marks: Arky Vaughan (136) and Honus Wagner (175).

That said, not only is he really not worthy of any of the three Gold Gloves he's won, I would argue that he was a terrible defensive player until he suddenly had a real Gold Glove shortstop playing to his immediate right. Looking just at his .975 career fielding percentage and calling him a good defender is simply wrong. Yes, he does comparatively well in fielding the balls that he gets to. The problem is that he doesn't get to nearly enough balls. He was okay when he first got to the big leagues, posting better than average Range Factors in both '96 and '97, his first two years as a starter. But then things started going downhill fast:

Range Factor (RF) versus League Range Factor (LgRF)
(Figures are per game)
1998: Jeter - 4.16; League - 4.26. (2.3% below average)
1999: Jeter - 3.93; League - 4.19. (6.2% below average)
2000: Jeter - 3.95; League - 4.17. (5.3% below average)
2001: Jeter - 3.70; League - 4.03. (8.2% below average)
2002: Jeter - 3.76; League - 4.15. (9.4% below average)
2003: Jeter - 3.65; League - 4.13. (11.6% below average)

And those numbers actually make him look BETTER than he really was, because they're based on games played, not innings played. Per inning, Jeter was actually even worse than the average AL shortstop, because he almost always plays complete games, while a lot of light-hitting shortstops are pulled early for a pinch hitter. These are the per inning numbers, which I only have data for since 2000:

2000: Jeter - 4.12; League - 4.71. (12.5% below average)
2001: Jeter - 3.81; League - 4.49. (15.1% below average)
2002: Jeter - 3.81; League - 4.56. (16.4% below average)
2003: Jeter - 3.75; League - 4.54. (17.4% below average)

Not only was Jeter below average, but he was steadily getting worse and worse at reaching balls in play compared to the league. By 2003, the gap was so large between him and the average shortstop that the Yankees were surrendering about 125 more hits per year through the shortstop hole than the average AL team.

Then along came ARod, a clearly superior defensive shortstop.

Range Factor (RF) versus League Range Factor (LgRF)
(Figures are per game)
1996: ARod - 4.40; League - 4.19 (5.0% above average)
1997: ARod - 4.31; League - 4.05 (6.4% above average)
1998: ARod - 4.46; League - 4.26 (4.7% above average)
1999: ARod - 4.61; League - 4.19 (10.0% above average)
2000: ARod - 4.59; League - 4.17 (10.1% above average)
2001: ARod - 4.54; League - 4.03 (12.7% above average)
2002: ARod - 4.51; League - 4.15 (8.7% above average)
2003: ARod - 4.37; League - 4.13 (5.8% above average)

Note that ARod didn't win any Gold Gloves in the 1999 to 2001 stretch when he was clearly an exceptional defensive shortstop. Omar Vizquel was still cleaning up those awards each year, and habit dies hard among the voters. Vizquel had a lower range factor than ARod all three of those years, but he had the great reputation and still didn't mishandle many, so he kept getting rewarded for his diminishing range. By rights, ARod should have at least two more Gold Gloves as a shortstop.

But he wasn't asked to play shortstop in New York. That was Jeter territory, so ARod slid over to third base. The affect on Jeter's defensive play was astounding.

Range Factor (RF) versus League Range Factor (LgRF)
(Figures are per game)
2004: Jeter - 4.32; League - 4.12. (4.9% above average)
2005: Jeter - 4.56; League - 4.17. (9.4% above average)
2006: Jeter - 3.97; League - 4.02. (1.2% below average)

Suddenly, Jeter has range again. One year, 2005, it was even exceptional, and he might actually have been worthy of the Gold Glove he won (although personally I think Juan Uribe or Miguel Tejada deserved it). The other two years he wasn't terribly different from league average, but they were still a distinct improvement over his performance before ARod showed up.

The voters, seeing this improvement, suddenly started handing Jeter Gold Glove awards, apparently without ever bothering to ask themselves if Jeter was actually improved or if he now simply could cheat to his left more, secure in the knowledge that the new third baseman had the range of a shortstop.

Regardless, it's pretty evident that he is a vastly overrated defensive player. But his offense is so good at a premium position, and his intangibles and post-season play so exceptional, that he's still an obvious Hall of Famer.

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#12060 - 12/01/06 02:44 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
hail2oldku Offline
Pure Jayhawk

Registered: 08/07/03
Thank you Billie Bean.

Just giving you shiite. Nice numbers.

Here's the thing for me though. He's a winner. Some guys have it and others don't. He has it, whatever it is. I still hate him though.
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Everywhere is walking distance, if you have enough time. - Steven Wright

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#12061 - 12/01/06 03:08 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: hail2oldku]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
No offense taken. And for the record, I'm a Red Sox fan and I hate his guts. But credit where it's due, he's a Hall of Famer, just not for his defense.

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#12062 - 12/01/06 07:13 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
No I think there is a lot more that I can come up with than HR's but I just thought it was a glaring ommision on your part. Thanks to 90 for pointing out Jeters glaring defensive weakness for me. Are those stats not good becaue they show how weak Jeter is? It did make my point which you never answered which is Jeter is not even the best SS on his team let alone the rest of baseball. I just used Ernie Banks as an example and was not basing my whole argument on him alone. Not to mention he played at a time when pitchers were dominant, the mound was higer, and throwing high and tight did not cause bench clearing brawls. Now take the fact the Banks played on some horrible teams and again my point is made. You never did answer but does Jeter reach anywhere near those numbers on bad teams??? No way. I will stand by what I said about the homeruns and that being the face of baseball. Are those good guys....no. But the longball is what brings in the money and fan excitement. Sosa, Bonds, Mac are credited with bringing baseball back with the homerun races not Jeter and his pretty boy looks. I personally would argue Cal started it with the streak but that is another post. Now, I already admited to being a Yankee hater but that is now why I think Jeter is overrated. I already told you I thought A-rod was/is the best SS in baseball and he is a Yankee too. I think Whitey Ford is one of the best world series pitchers of all time, I also think Mantle was the best switch hitter ever (sorry Eddie Murray)and yes those are all Yankees. I am sorry but I am just not caught up in Jeter mania. Oh, and don't give me that when Jeter won his rings the Yankees were not spending money crap. Go back and look at thier payroll and it was still one of the highest in baseball.
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kusports.net Peace Out and Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

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#12063 - 12/03/06 09:56 AM Re: Yankees. [Re: jayhwk01]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Numbers dont lie.

Bring in all your 4 point-whatever percentages and all the stats you all want to hang, but bottom line is Jeter is a winner. And when you mix a winning team with hating that winning team your recipe is destructive and tart.

I like when people have to number crunch to the root in order to find "negative" things about players. When you look at the surface, alot of teams would like to have Jeter on their respective teams. "How weak Jeter is"! That's some funny stuff right there.

Alot of hypothetical views about if Jeter didnt have certain players or if Jeter would be playing elsewhere he wouldnt be squat, try this hypothetical view: If the same numbers from the same guy were posted since 1996, and the same player wore the same uniform of the team you root for, would you still hate this guy as much as you do right now? Bottom line, 16 oz. bottle of Hater-Ade.

ARod is/was a better SS. Your talking about comparing Jeter to someone who will go down as the BEST SS of all time though. Tough break for Jeter but I would rather have 4 rings than "best ss" title.

Mound heighth, pitchers dominant? Try bein a hitter nowadays and facin 3-4 DIFFERENT pitchers in a game. Back then starters used to hurl 8 innings a game. Middle relief was not like now and closers were not even heard of. Try and be a 8 inning, every 4 day starter in 2007. Try and stay on the bump for 8 innings against lineups like the Yanks, Red Sox, White Sox and Cardinals night in and night out. Aint happenin'.

Your steroid buddies you mentioned did put some excitement back in the game. However, so did Jose Canseco at one point in his career but what is he remembered for most? Exactly. Your cheats were only good for so long. And dont forget the strike in '94 MLB was still reeling from. MLB was all for that memorable '98 chase after that travesty. They'll be nothing more than cheats when their chapter in MLB ends.

Your hypothetical views and hopes that Jeter fails will never happen. Bottom line is Jeter is a winner. Period. He is a leader on the field and someone you would want behind you if you were in the botttom of the ninth and need a big out.

Jeter and the Yankees since 1996: 4 rings. Winner of the A.L East 9 straight years. HOF SS. HOF numbers. Captain. And the face of MLB.


What happened with the Pujols-podium meltdown? I like the guy but, geez, what a worm. You win a WS ring and all of the sudden your diaper needs changed. Has Tony La changed his poopy diaper yet? Like I said, Jeter, MR. Team, would not take that selfish approach.
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#12064 - 12/03/06 10:29 AM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
Your not even paying attention. MY steriod guys. Not my guys at all. If you troll thru the baseball posts you will see I called for those guys to be tossed so take that strawman "your guys" stuff somewhere else. In fact, if you go back I said I thought Cal's streak had more to do with the start of bringing baseball back but way to read only what you want to read. AP is not my guy either, my point was he brings an excitement that sells better than players like Jeter. Now, I don't disagree Jeter is a winner because he is but I do like how you post stats and then when someone else posts stats that go against your guy all of the sudden stats are no good. Your argument is just turning into Yankee hater Yankee hater and you just say it over and over again like it makes your point. I guess that means your argument is breaking down. I suppose I could tell you to take the Yankee glasses off. Now, if Jeter was on another team would I be a fan...probably not because on another team all he would be is what he is now. A good MLB hitter with lesser stats because he is on a worse team. His defense is what it is and that is average. Now, as far as your relief pitching two or three pitchers comment...well now you are just reaching. The mound was lowered, the strike zone changed, and the hitter became protected which is why offensive numbers jumped like crazy. Go back and review the numbers since the mound was lowered and you will see I am right. You are right pitchers used to routinely go the distance and suprise there were less arm injuries then. I would argue many (not all) of todays pitchers are so protected they don't throw enought and their arms break down. In fact, nobody but you even argues this point and many have started calling for the mound to be raised back again. In your first post you accused me of not knowing baseball well fella if you don't know this one then pot meet kettle. The funny thing is I told you I thought Jeter was a good player and a HOF and you can't accept that. For some reason you feel like if the baseball world does not annoint him the gretest SS ever and credit him with saving baseball somehow we are all wrong. And I am drinking kool-aid? Look in the mirror pal.
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kusports.net Peace Out and Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

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#12065 - 12/03/06 11:18 AM Re: Yankees. [Re: jayhwk01]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
You brought those guys up with your long ball analogy. True the long ball is popular and is why people come to the games. But dont compare to what Jeter is lacking to a fistful of cheats. Maybe you dont realise but not all teams have 20 guys hittin 40 HR's. Teams are made up of different types of players, some are in the lineup for workin pitch counts and are patient hitters some are heavy hitters. Some are more about base hits and some are fast on the bases. Whatever it is a different players do is what makes up a team. It is unfair to compare Jeter to power hitters and say he overrated, try comparing Jeter with his SS peers.

I welcome all staticians when breaking down athletes. But I wont apologize for Jeter having a "average" percentage in the field. Some players dont even put a glove on but still are considered an MVP. Sure Jeter's numbers in the field are not the best, maybe not in the top whatever. But his all around game is what's contagious. I never said he was the best in the field. How bout doin some homework and postin other SS percentages and they're offensive stats and see where they end up. Like i said, thru 12 years Cal is the only SS who is in Jeter's stat category.

And I posted stats from other SS HOFers. I didnt get no feed back from those, that's why Yankee hater comes in cause thats the root of the problem.

I like how you dodge the hypothetically question I posed on same stats different team. All you did was readjust my analogy and tweaked his stats down and then you come up with "a good MLB hitter with lesser stats cause on a bad team".


My argument was strictly why Jeter isnt overrated. He is exactly what all teams need, leadership and a winning attitude. You spent more time pickin away at percentage points and comparing what he cant do rather than seeing what is in the book. Dont spend to much time trying to rewrite history and buying bottles of whiteout.

Who else is in your overrated folder? There has to be others. And by the way, you know my team, who is yours?
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#12066 - 12/03/06 11:31 AM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
Iam a Royals/Cubs guy. And before you even start I have not Yankee envy I just think they are bad for baseball with the salary thing and all. Beyond that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on Jeter. I think he is overrated and to you he is in the top 5 all time. I don't see it but you are entitled as am I.
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kusports.net Peace Out and Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

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#12067 - 12/03/06 11:54 AM Re: Yankees. [Re: jayhwk01]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Right on.

You might want to check the Cubs' payroll. While it's not Yankeeheighth it is following a growing trend, spending big. But I do root for the Cubs when not playing the Yankees. I hope they finally get over the goat and Bart. I have said countless times that I dont agree with the Yankees payroll, it actually makes me sick. But what can you do? I dont agree with more than half the decisions that have been made the last 6 years as a Yankee fan.

Royals. Well, the Royals are the Royals. Prospects get groomed and planted in their farm only to be swooped up by a bigger bird. It's gonna take a firm stance by a ALL Star position player that wants to stay a Royal and one helluva manager in order to repair that ship. You probably were a Johnny Damon fan before he left. Maybe even Beltran.

And dont get the story twisted, I never once typed that Jeter was the top 5 ALL TIME. Top 5 SS, yes. All time, no.

I'm good with the agreeing with disagreeing analogy. I always say If you dont stand for something you will fall for anything.
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it takes a nation of millions to hold us back

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#12068 - 12/03/06 02:56 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
jayhwk01 Offline
Timmy's Nemesis

Registered: 01/22/05
Loc: Mt. Oread's Shadow
Its all good. We agree for sure on the Payroll thing. The Cubs have gone crazy this year for sure which I don't like to see. Just more feeding the monster. The Royals yeah well not much to say...they are what they are. The Yanks are kind of the evil empire of baseball but the irony for me is my favorite football team is the Yankees mirror image in a different sport...yep I am a Cowboys fan. Jerry Jones is the same as Steinbreiner. I respect both of their desires to win but I don't think spending the way the do is good. Anyhow fun discussion. Maybe next time we will have to argue about the pine tar incident between Gossage and Brett.
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kusports.net Peace Out and Rock Chalk Jayhawk.

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#12069 - 12/03/06 04:51 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Two points:

1. You can't, on the one hand, say that you agree Jeter is an average defensive player and then, on the other hand, claim that he isn't overrated. Those are completely inconsistent views. He has been handed three Gold Gloves despite being, at best, an average defensive player. He is therefore, de facto, overrated defensively. Plain and simple. You can only claim he isn't overrated if you think he actually deserved those Gold Gloves, and trust me, that's an argument you would lose. I could go chapter and verse on that one.

2. I think Jeter is an outstanding offensive player for a shortstop. I've already noted that his adjusted career OPS is better than all but two Hall of Fame shortstops. That's a bit misleading because all of the Hall of Famers' numbers include their final years when their performances were declining, a stage Jeter hasn't reached yet, but it's still an impressive accomplishment so far. That said, it's ludicrous to claim that only Cal Ripken is in Jeter's class offensively as a shortstop. There are several shortstops who have been better offensively through their first dozen seasons that Jeter, and a couple who were essentially his equal:

OPS+, First 12 Seasons
(That's On-base Plus Slugging percentages, adjusted for home ballparks and run-scoring eras.)

Jeter: 123 (a.k.a., 23% better than the leagues he played in)

Honus Wagner: 164
Alex Rodriguez: 145
Arky Vaughan: 137
Ernie Banks: 130
Nomar Garciaparra: 130 (only 11 seasons so far)
George Davis: 126
Lou Boudreau: 124
Cal Ripken: 123
Vern Stephens: 122
Barry Larkin: 122

Jeter is an exceptional hitter for his position, and an exceptional leader. A real winner, he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Agreed, agreed, agreed and agreed. But to claim his first 12 years are matched only by Ripken among shortstops, and to fail to acknowledge that his defense is wildly overrated, is simply presposterous. Your argument is better if you acknowledge his shortcomings and proper historical place along with all of his obvious strengths. Refusing to do so makes you look like the one who can't be unbiased in this discussion.

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#12070 - 12/03/06 09:30 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
I agreed simply because I was getting tired of kicking a deadhorse. Sometimes you just have to move on in discussions.

I think all your number crunchin' is good and all, but it doesnt ultimitly define him as being overrated as a baseball player. Not to many in the Hall, period, that were the best all the way across the board.

Tell you what then. Trash your dewey decimal system and %and show me what SS's had better offensive stats all the way around. Since your a numbers guy, mosey on in to the HOF and get the top 5 SS that are in. Now, take all the main categories offensively and cycle through each player and compare them to Jeter's first 12. Sure, there are a few columns he wont win, but add'em up and they are much better than you think.

It's funny, when you watch Baseball Tonight or hear a respected analyst they dont go into all this work and search and gasbag over these petty numbers you guys bring up. Analysts tend to state the obvious when describing what a ball player, Jeter in this case, means to a ball club. Only Red Sox fans and your typical Yankeehaters get all giddy and happy over these pointpercentage hoo-rah discussions.

Check the error total on guys like Wagner and Vaughan. Over 600 between the two.

If he was in a Red Sox uniform and the Red Sox had his rings, Red Sox fans wouldnt be working so hard to dig these shallow numbers up.
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#12071 - 12/04/06 09:36 AM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

I agreed simply because I was getting tired of kicking a deadhorse. Sometimes you just have to move on in discussions.

I think all your number crunchin' is good and all, but it doesnt ultimitly define him as being overrated as a baseball player. Not to many in the Hall, period, that were the best all the way across the board.

Tell you what then. Trash your dewey decimal system and %and show me what SS's had better offensive stats all the way around. Since your a numbers guy, mosey on in to the HOF and get the top 5 SS that are in. Now, take all the main categories offensively and cycle through each player and compare them to Jeter's first 12. Sure, there are a few columns he wont win, but add'em up and they are much better than you think.

It's funny, when you watch Baseball Tonight or hear a respected analyst they dont go into all this work and search and gasbag over these petty numbers you guys bring up. Analysts tend to state the obvious when describing what a ball player, Jeter in this case, means to a ball club. Only Red Sox fans and your typical Yankeehaters get all giddy and happy over these pointpercentage hoo-rah discussions.

Check the error total on guys like Wagner and Vaughan. Over 600 between the two.

If he was in a Red Sox uniform and the Red Sox had his rings, Red Sox fans wouldnt be working so hard to dig these shallow numbers up.




So, let me get this straight. I'm an admitted Red Sox fan who has already agreed that Jeter is an outstanding hitter, leader and clutch player, that he might actually be undervalued as a hitter, and that he clearly belongs in the Hall of Fame, and you're STILL not happy? And all of this is because I pointed out the handful of shortstops who were better hitters and I had the audacity to repeat something countless baseball experts have already said, that Jeter is overrated defensively? And yet I'M the one who has trouble being imparital? Hello kettle, I'm pot. You're black.

Look, if you want to look at nothing but raw counting stats in complete ignorance of the different run-scoring environments in which they were compiled, be my guest. And if you want to rest your defensive case on error totals in absolute ignorance of how defensive players should be evaluated, feel free to keep on living in that dream world too. I'm sure Derek Jeter is the greatest shortstop in the history of the sport in that little alternate universe. And let me guess, all of the other positions are held by Yankees, too.

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#12072 - 12/04/06 12:36 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Right on 1990.

Not a matter of me bein happy. I stood up on the "terrible defensive player" remark.

I see both sides of the statbook. You brought up the statline on percentages and decimals which uses formulas on numerous aspects of the defense game which is helpful when evaluating a player down to the planting of the seed. Most of the guys that you compared him to are HOFers and some were very underrated in their respective time.

And there is no ingnorance on my part. I know there are players who are excellent in one aspect and arent so in other areas. This overrated thing was initially in response to someone saying him being overrated period, as a player. Sure it can be broken down to what it is now, and I can accept that.

The errors thing is just a category I wanted to throw out and see what your response was if I threw out statistical numbers. And, as I expected, you scraped them off as me being ingnorant to your stats. I guess errors dont factor in when evaluating a player. Let me ask you, do the Red Sox have any overrated players?

And no, not all Yankees hold on to that title as best ever. The outfield? Yes. Ruth, Mantle and Joe D. 1st base? Yes. Iron Horse. 3b or SS? Yes. ARod. I could make a pitch for Clemens also on the bump. Hmmmmmm...I could also put Yogi behind the plate if I stretched it out.
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