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#12073 - 12/04/06 01:25 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

Right on 1990.

Not a matter of me bein happy. I stood up on the "terrible defensive player" remark.

I see both sides of the statbook. You brought up the statline on percentages and decimals which uses formulas on numerous aspects of the defense game which is helpful when evaluating a player down to the planting of the seed. Most of the guys that you compared him to are HOFers and some were very underrated in their respective time.

And there is no ingnorance on my part. I know there are players who are excellent in one aspect and arent so in other areas. This overrated thing was initially in response to someone saying him being overrated period, as a player. Sure it can be broken down to what it is now, and I can accept that.

The errors thing is just a category I wanted to throw out and see what your response was if I threw out statistical numbers. And, as I expected, you scraped them off as me being ingnorant to your stats. I guess errors dont factor in when evaluating a player. Let me ask you, do the Red Sox have any overrated players?

And no, not all Yankees hold on to that title as best ever. The outfield? Yes. Ruth, Mantle and Joe D. 1st base? Yes. Iron Horse. 3b or SS? Yes. ARod. I could make a pitch for Clemens also on the bump. Hmmmmmm...I could also put Yogi behind the plate if I stretched it out.




Wow, lot's to chew on there. First, of course the Red Sox have overrated players. Jason Varitek, Mike Lowell, Josh Beckett, Coco Crisp, Trot Nixon, and that's just off the top of my head. Schilling wasn't overrated but he is now. My favorite player ever is Jim Rice, and while I think he belongs in the Hall of Fame, I can also recognize that he's overrated in general. It's not a sin to admit that some of the guys on your team aren't really as good as their press clippings.

Two, no, raw error totals should not come into play when evaluating the defensive performances of two guys from completely different eras. Honus Wagner played at a time when the gloves were these crappy leather bubbles and there were rocks - not pebbles, rocks - on every infield. Not too fair to look at his error totals, ya know? And that assumes errors should ever be used, which I firmly believe they shouldn't. Give me the guy who gets to 500 ground balls each year and makes 30 errors over the guy who reaches just 400 while making 15 errors. The second guy will have the better fielding percentage, but he'll be a vastly inferior shortstop.

Three, if you want just raw stats, here you go:

All-Time Shortstop Leaders Through First 12 Years
Games - Cal Ripken (at least 3 others also ahead of Jeter)
At Bats - Luis Aparicio (at least 2 others also ahead of Jeter)
Runs - Jeter, congratulations
Hits - Jeter, congratulations
Doubles - Honus Wagner (at least a dozen guys ahead of Jeter)
Triples - Honus Wagner (dozens ahead of Jeter)
Homers - ARod (at least 5 others ahead of Jeter)
RBI - ARod (at least a dozen ahead of Jeter)
ExBase Hits - ARod (at least 5 others ahead of Jeter)
Steals - Honus Wagner (a dozen or more ahead of Jeter)
Walks - Pee Wee Reese (six others ahead of Jeter)
Total Bases - ARod (at least 3 others ahead of Jeter)
Average - Honus Wagner (at lesat 3 others ahead of Jeter)
On Base % - Vaughan/Wagner tie (plus 4 others ahead of Jeter)
Slugging % - ARod (at least 5 others ahead of Jeter)
OPS - ARod (at least 4 others ahead of Jeter)

So Jeter does manage more hits and runs than any other shortstop, due largely to the fact that he bats at the top of a powerful lineup, but otherwise, multiple shortstops lead him in every other meaningful offensive category. He's obviously in highly respectable company, and to repeat yet again, I think he's an no-brainer first ballot Hall of Famer, but he's NOT the finest offensive shortstop in history. But go ahead and keep claiming that he is if that makes you feel better.

Finally, please tell me you were kidding about the every position a Yankee thing. I'll give you Ruth in right and Gehrig at first. But have you ever heard of a guy named Willie Mays? Pretty good center fielder I hear. You don't mention any left fielder, so does that mean there's room for Ted Williams on your planet? Mike Schmidt at third base? Johnny Bench at catcher? Honus Wagner...oh wait, we've already agreed that Jeter is the greatest shortstop ever in your world. The only spot you didn't mention was second base, so hopefully you're not trying to make a claim for Bobby Richardson or Willie Randolph over Rogers Hornsby. At pitcher, the Red Sox have a better claim on Clemens than New York, and we haven't even discussed Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Greg Maddux, Sandy Koufax, and so on and so on. Sorry, I just don't see it, but if that's your list, I hope Yankeeland turns out to be a fun world for you to live in.

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#12074 - 12/04/06 04:21 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
Let me add Clement and Ortiz. Does he even own a glove? Better hope he remains in the American League.

Never once said Jeter was "the finest" SS ever. But he is definitly not "terrible" at it.

Even if Wagner was dodgin' boulders, errors are still used. Come on though, over 600?


Again, while I never said he was the greatest ever I would take being in that class of players. Top 5 in a few and top 10 in others. Alot of great SS have been around since the late 1800's. Let me check again........ Nope, dont think I ever said he was the best. Still wondering why you are still wearing the shirt that says "JHAWX75 says Jeter is the best ever".

I knew you would find the Yankee field somewhat humorous. Ruth and Gehrig are the only ones. Yogi might squeeze in front of Bench. Maybe. Ted would definitly be in the field. Willie also. I'm see'n again where you state that I said Jeter was Mr. Everything. Those silly Red Sox fans! 2nd base all time I was gonna say Cano!

Either way, Roger is in on both teams. Go 'head and claim him yours. Red Sox have always been the bridesmaid. The lil' bro that gets shoeprints on his back. Well, strike that, except for that 2004 colassal colapse. That still stings by the way. Definitly worse than the Boone and Dent circus.
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#12075 - 12/04/06 05:21 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

Let me add Clement and Ortiz. Does he even own a glove? Better hope he remains in the American League.

Never once said Jeter was "the finest" SS ever. But he is definitly not "terrible" at it.

Even if Wagner was dodgin' boulders, errors are still used. Come on though, over 600?


Again, while I never said he was the greatest ever I would take being in that class of players. Top 5 in a few and top 10 in others. Alot of great SS have been around since the late 1800's. Let me check again........ Nope, dont think I ever said he was the best. Still wondering why you are still wearing the shirt that says "JHAWX75 says Jeter is the best ever".

I knew you would find the Yankee field somewhat humorous. Ruth and Gehrig are the only ones. Yogi might squeeze in front of Bench. Maybe. Ted would definitly be in the field. Willie also. I'm see'n again where you state that I said Jeter was Mr. Everything. Those silly Red Sox fans! 2nd base all time I was gonna say Cano!

Either way, Roger is in on both teams. Go 'head and claim him yours. Red Sox have always been the bridesmaid. The lil' bro that gets shoeprints on his back. Well, strike that, except for that 2004 colassal colapse. That still stings by the way. Definitly worse than the Boone and Dent circus.




Clement was overrated when he signed his contract, but not anymore. Now every Red Sox fan in the world knows he sucks. And I wouldn't say Ortiz is overrated because I think everyone already downgrades his overall performance because of the DH thing. In fact, that already cost him an MVP in 2005 when many voters said they simply couldn't vote for a DH. Doesn't sound like he's overrated to me.

Maybe I misread your comments about Jeter's offense. I thought you said I would be hard-pressed to find any shortstop in history with better offensive numbers across the board in their first dozen seasons. To me that sounds like you think he's the best-hitting shortstop ever, at least through a dozen years. If that wasn't your intent, my apologies.

My "terrible" comment had nothing to do with his offense and everything to do with his defense. My definition of "terrible" includes stuff like finishing dead last in the league among your peers in something, as Jeter did in range on a couple of occasions. I'm sorry, but those are the facts. Maybe you want to use a different word or phrase that's not as inflammatory, like "subpar" or "below average" or "trailing the pack", but "good" or "great" or "Gold-Glove-caliber" simply don' fit. He's now better than he used to be, solidly average defensively, but that doesn't make him worthy of any Gold Gloves. Anyone who claims he's the best defensive shortstop in the league, as the Gold Gloves certainly imply, is overrating his defense by a good stretch.

If you want to include raw error totals when evaluating Wagner's defense, be my guest, but not putting them in context is just wrong. That's like saying that Bonds' 73 homers are the best ever without ever mentioning the steroids, the longer season, the smaller parks, the tighter baseballs, the watered down pitching, etc. Be fair. Wagner had high error totals at a time when EVERYONE had high error totals. He was actually much more sure-handed than his peers. His career fielding percentage as a shortstop was 13 percentage points higher than the league average, compared to Jeter's being just three percentage points better than the league average. Wagner's range was incredible compared to his peers, nearly 9% better than league average for his entire career, even with his older years included when he was a regular shortstop all the way up to age 41. Jeter, even with his recent resurgence, still has a career range factor about 1% lower then league average. Wagner, on average, fielded 5.6 chances per game for his career as a shortstop, while Jeter has handled just 4.1, meaning Wagner fielded nearly 40% more chances per game during his career. If you're looking at just that high error total and drawing the conclusion that Honus Wagner was a poor defensive shortstop, you're just wrong.

As far as the little brother complex goes, bear in mind that the Yankee Dynasty didn't begin until crappy Sox ownership sold you all of Boston's good players from five World Championship teams, Ruth included. Every Yankee fan out there should be thanking the Red Sox for their good fortune. Allow me to just offer you a preemptive "You're Welcome" and call it good.

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#12076 - 12/04/06 05:54 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
I thought you said I would be hard-pressed to find any shortstop in history with better offensive numbers across the board
__________________________________________________________

Na, never said that.

While Ortiz is a heavy hitter, and a damn good one, he doesnt even give people the chance to argue him as a complete ball player. He doesnt give anyone a chance to bring up anything on defense cause the guy doesnt play it. That's why I refer to him as overrated as a ball player. Sure, hitting he is a monster and, to me, the best in the game(ahead of Pujols IMO). But anyone that doesnt put on a glove and do the dirty work on defense isnt even on the cusp of discussing. Example: No National League team would want David Ortiz. Period. Take the shallow DH rule out of the AL and Ortiz would be out of a job.

If finishing "dead last" in one category for a few seasons, as you say, defines you as being terrible, then how hard is it to just be average?

Why do you misconstrue my words, nobody said Wagner was a poor defensive shortstop. You did. I made a very sarcastic comment on the "boulder" thing. I know what Wagner did in his day.

Alot of teams have benefited off of other teams mistakes. Happens all the time. And I do thank the Sox. For their ignorance. Or greed, or whatever it was that landed in their drink the day of that massacre of a decision. Ruth was only the beginning. Splinter would of been a Yankee also if Boston didnt ask for Berra along with Joe D.
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#12077 - 12/04/06 07:20 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

I thought you said I would be hard-pressed to find any shortstop in history with better offensive numbers across the board
__________________________________________________________

Na, never said that...




But you did say, "...How bout doin some homework and postin other SS percentages and they're offensive stats and see where they end up. Like i said, thru 12 years Cal is the only SS who is in Jeter's stat category", which sounds awfully close.

Quote:

If finishing "dead last" in one category for a few seasons, as you say, defines you as being terrible, then how hard is it to just be average?




It's pretty ahrd to be an average major leaguer in anything. There's a lot of area between terrible and average. If you're dead last, you're terrible. If you're not last but close, you're bad. If you're below average but no by much, you're just below average, etc. That's my definition and I apply it universally. (e.g. Matt Clement is a terrible pitcher. Bengie Molina is a terrible baserunner.) Your definition obviously varies. It it makes you feel better, I'll be more specific. Jeter wasn't, all-around, a terrible defensive shortstop. But his range certainly was. He's improved that to average, for whatever reason, so kudos to him.

Quote:

Why do you misconstrue my words, nobody said Wagner was a poor defensive shortstop. You did. I made a very sarcastic comment on the "boulder" thing. I know what Wagner did in his day.




No offense, but saying "Wagner made 600 errors" without putting it in context sure as hell implies that you think he was a bad defender.

So, all that said, where do you rank Jeter all-time? It's a bit early, which gives him an advantage since he hasn't had any declining years yet to drag his averages down, but at the moment I'd say it looks something like this:

Wagner
Ripken
Vaughan
Banks
Yount
Larkin
Trammell
Cronin
Jeter

I think Jeter has at least 3-4 more years left at his current rate of productivity, and that would move him up pretty far, easily into the top five. For me, he would still be behind the top three unless he puts up about five more years like 2006. The wild card is ARod, who, if you count him as a shortstop, is better than all of them with the possible exception of Wagner. But I suspect he'll be considered a third baseman before he's done because I don't see him moving back to short even if he changes teams.

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#12078 - 12/04/06 10:15 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
Swoosh24 Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 12/06/05
Loc: Topeka, KS
go red sox!

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#12079 - 12/05/06 02:45 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Swoosh24]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
As an all around player I would put him behind Banks.

I would rank Cal ahead of Wagner though. Era's were madd different and I think it was tougher for Cal to pave those types of numbers than for Wagner. Cal revolutionized the SS position IMO.

ARod would of been the best all around SS ever.
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#12080 - 12/05/06 03:28 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

As an all around player I would put him behind Banks.

I would rank Cal ahead of Wagner though. Era's were madd different and I think it was tougher for Cal to pave those types of numbers than for Wagner. Cal revolutionized the SS position IMO.

ARod would of been the best all around SS ever.




I can deal with that placement for Jeter. Maybe not right this minute, but in a couple-three years, that seems about right.

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#12081 - 12/05/06 03:45 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
And yeah, that placement was by the end of his career.

Speaking on the Sox for a moment, I was watching the tube last night and they played a clip when Dave Henderson went yard against the California Angels in '86. Then showed the 9th inning game 6 meltdown against the Mets. For years I never really understood what it felt like to have a slow death like the Red Sox faced, then 2004 came.
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#12082 - 12/05/06 04:02 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

And yeah, that placement was by the end of his career.

Speaking on the Sox for a moment, I was watching the tube last night and they played a clip when Dave Henderson went yard against the California Angels in '86. Then showed the 9th inning game 6 meltdown against the Mets. For years I never really understood what it felt like to have a slow death like the Red Sox faced, then 2004 came.




Welcome to the club!! Now if you can only have another half dozen of those moments over the course of 80+ years before the Yanks win their next title. I don't ask for much.

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#12083 - 12/05/06 06:57 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
JHAWX75 Offline
Lawrence Legend

Registered: 01/13/06
Loc: 911's A Joke!
2001 was one of those. Sandman on the bump in the bottom of the ninth with a 1 run lead. I wanted to break Gonzo's nose with that little judy he hit to win it. Whatever it takes though I guess. I remember they put in Womack to pinch run and he ended up scoring. Reminded me of Game 4 or 5 of 2004 when Boston put the fast dude in to pinch run and ended up scorin. I think on a judy hit by Ortiz(not sure).
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#12084 - 12/05/06 07:23 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
tulsahawk13 Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 09/28/05
Hawk 1990, can you find those stats on the net or are they from Mr. James?
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#12085 - 12/05/06 07:24 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: JHAWX75]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

2001 was one of those. Sandman on the bump in the bottom of the ninth with a 1 run lead. I wanted to break Gonzo's nose with that little judy he hit to win it. Whatever it takes though I guess. I remember they put in Womack to pinch run and he ended up scoring. Reminded me of Game 4 or 5 of 2004 when Boston put the fast dude in to pinch run and ended up scorin. I think on a judy hit by Ortiz(not sure).




Two different games, one with a pinch runner, one with a judy hit. Game 4 was the one with the pinch-runner (Dave Roberts), who stole second and scored on a solid single from Bill Mueller to tie the game in the 9th. The cheap hit from Ortiz was in Game 5, when he hit a broken bat blooper into center to score Damon and win it in the 14th. Both burned eternally into my memory.

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#12086 - 12/05/06 07:33 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: tulsahawk13]
Hawk1990 Offline
US Marshal, Kansas Territory

Registered: 09/03/06
Loc: Shawnee, KS
Quote:

Hawk 1990, can you find those stats on the net or are they from Mr. James?




Go to Baseball-Reference.com. Absolutely indispensable. Here's the Jeter page, and here's the Wagner page.

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#12087 - 12/05/06 07:47 PM Re: Yankees. [Re: Hawk1990]
tulsahawk13 Offline
Phog Fanatic

Registered: 09/28/05
Great stuff, thanks a lot. I tried telling 75 the same thing about Jeter not too long ago on the MVP thread but he doesn't like to hear it.
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