Fire Dayton

Posted by: JFish26

Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 11:49 AM

This is beyond ridiculous:

Royals Trade For Jacobs

In one move, we've effectively foreclosed on two of the most promising hitters in the organization for a guy that gets on base less than Ross Gload.

[censored] this.
Posted by: jayhwk01

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 12:11 PM

Fire Dayton? Maybe a bit reactionary but I agree this move is questionable. Hopefully Dayton knows or sees something the rest of us don't. Time will tell.
Posted by: jayhawks14

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 12:23 PM

Yeah I don't really understand the move with the plethora or 1B/DH's that the Royals have...
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 01:36 PM

Quote:

Yeah I don't really understand the move with the plethora or 1B/DH's that the Royals have...





...especially given that Jacobs is worse than three of them (Butler, Shealy, Ka'aihue). Jacobs is 28 years old, shows skills which do not stand to improve over time, and won't come close to 32 home runs at Kauffman. This is a disastrous move on a number of fronts, some of which I've already addressed.

1. He does not present an upgrade over the available options.
2. He represents that the Royals are giving up on at least one (and seemingly two) of the best hitting prospects in the organization (Butler and Ka'aihue).
3. The trade shows a clear mismanagement of assets. Nunez was a valuable chip. While trading him is not necessarily a mistake, using him to obtain Mike Jacobs is awful (for the aforementioned reasons).

While calling for Dayton's firing is clearly rash, it is not a reaction to this move alone. This move merely represents a consistent failure on Moore's part to allocate assets responsibly and efficiently.
Posted by: jayhawks14

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 01:45 PM

Do you think they might be thinking of dealing one of the other players they have to make room for Jacobs?

Thats the only thing I can think of...
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 01:58 PM

Quote:

Do you think they might be thinking of dealing one of the other players they have to make room for Jacobs?

Thats the only thing I can think of...




I think that's the only possible justification, but there's a serious flaw in that logic: by this move, they've undercut Butler's trade value to the point that it is not worth dealing him. By making Butler completely expendable, the asking price for him has plummeted. Ka'aihue has even less value, and Shealy's follows his. Gload is untradeable (and, I would contend, unemployable).

Butler, Ka'aihue, and Shealy would all be better players next year than Jacobs. Giving up a trade chip of marginally high value (Nunez) for him is indefensible--unless you were going to get a premium package for Butler. That package would never be out there unless Butler started hitting in the majors like his talent dictates--a chance he's now unlikely to have with the Royals because of this silly trade.

Utter ineptitude.
Posted by: Jphog

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 03:33 PM

Nunez gets hurt every year anyway. His trade value wasn't that high.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 04:33 PM

I'm going to have to disagree. I like Shealy a lot, but this was a steal for Dayton. The Royals haven't had a guy hit 30 home runs since Jermaine Dye. Here, they got a legitimate power guy who is entering his prime (turned 28 today) for Nunez, a frequently injured reliever with a violent motion who never proved he could handle the workload of a starter. Around the league, I'm sure people are shaking their heads wondering why the Marlins would make such a deal. Remember, also, that Shealy is no spring chicken (29). This is a steal for Dayton, whether the Royals needed a first baseman or not.
Posted by: jayhwk01

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 04:36 PM

JNewell do you really think he is going to hit 30+ at the K? I don't think so not to mention his OBP is awful and now what about Butler and the rest of the DH/1B crowd? This is a head scratcher to me.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 04:46 PM

jayhwk01 — They go into the ballparks in this blog on the K.C. Star.

http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/85

Scroll down to "As for Jacobs." Turns out Florida is a worse ballpark to hit in than K.C.
Posted by: jayhwk01

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 04:50 PM

Interesting....we will see I guess. Still don't think it's a good trade given what we have on the roster already.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 04:55 PM

01 — Just curious. What would you think of this trade if you were a Marlins' fan?
Posted by: jayhwk01

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 04:57 PM

It would depend what else was on the roster or in the minors to replace the production. Getting pitching is (almost) always a good thing.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 04:59 PM

Quote:

I'm going to have to disagree. I like Shealy a lot, but this was a steal for Dayton. The Royals haven't had a guy hit 30 home runs since Jermaine Dye. Here, they got a legitimate power guy who is entering his prime (turned 28 today) for Nunez, a frequently injured reliever with a violent motion who never proved he could handle the workload of a starter. Around the league, I'm sure people are shaking their heads wondering why the Marlins would make such a deal. Remember, also, that Shealy is no spring chicken (29). This is a steal for Dayton, whether the Royals needed a first baseman or not.




Flatly--you're wrong. Very, very wrong. Jacobs is among the worst players in the major leagues. He is old, and his skills do not profile to age well. Players who don't take walks at age 28 don't learn to walk.

Nobody around the majors is shaking their heads over this deal, wondering how the Royals pulled this off. This is one of the most miserable trades which will be made this offseason. Jacobs got on base at a .299 clip in a easy league. He's going to be awful as a Royal.

If you're having trouble understanding how dangerously wrong your logic is, read this, by the best authority out there on the Royals:

http://www.ranyontheroyals.com/2008/10/memo-to-dmgm-wtf.html

Money quote:

"There were 29 players this season who batted at least 300 times and played at least half their games at first base. Only two of them had a lower OBP than Ross Gload’s .317. One was John Bowker, rookie first baseman for the Giants, who had a .300 OBP. The other – with the lowest OBP of any first baseman in the game – was Jacobs. That’s right: Moore has managed to find a first baseman that actually reached base less often than Ross Gload. And he’s willing to give up talent to get him."
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 05:02 PM

And, you know, I'm not quite done yet. This trade is unfathomably stupid. In one move, Moore made the Royals worse in 2009 and beyond, gave up on one of the most promising hitters the organization has developed in the last decade, surrendered a talented player to do so, and got a player who will be terrible in the American League.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 05:03 PM

And finally, 28-years old is not a players prime. It's 26 or 27--statistically speaking.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 05:32 PM

JFish — You're obviously passionate about your position (and the Royals), which I appreciate.

I'm not going to argue about the OBP. You are right in that regard. .299 is terrible. But can his OBP get better? Sure (.299 was the worst of his career). OBP is important, but if you're a Moneyball guy, so is slugging percentage. The Royals are dreadful in both, and at least Jacobs has some pop. It's frustrating for me to watch the Royals string together four singles to get two runs only to have Jermaine Dye (and the rest of the White Sox) follow with a two-run homer the next inning. K.C. needs power, and Jacobs provides that.

Jacobs enters the organization immediately as the Royals' best power hitter, and the Royals got him for a reliever that I don't foresee playing any greater role than as a right-handed reliever (which are a dime a dozen in the Majors).

I also like the thought of Jacobs working with Seitzer. Kevin has a hit-to-all-fields approach much like Jacobs, and I'm hoping that Kevin will be able to get the best out of him.

I'm not lumping you in with all Royals fans, Jfish, but I was surprised how many were upset that Moore was talking about trading Teahen. Last year was his magical 27th year, and he didn't look so magical to me. Still, Moore was taking a lot of heat for talking trade on a guy that many fans still think will come around. It seems like a lot of fans talk both ways (don't trade 27-year-old Teahen, don't trade for 28-year-old Jacobs). Again, just my observation.

If the Royals would have given up Rosa, I would have liked the trade a lot less, but I just don't see the upside with Nunez. I think at worst, K.C. is breaking even on this deal.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 05:43 PM

Quote:

JFish — You're obviously passionate about your position (and the Royals), which I appreciate.

I'm not going to argue about the OBP. You are right in that regard. .299 is terrible. But can his OBP get better? Sure (.299 was the worst of his career). OBP is important, but if you're a Moneyball guy, so is slugging percentage. The Royals are dreadful in both, and at least Jacobs has some pop. It's frustrating for me to watch the Royals string together four singles to get two runs only to have Jermaine Dye (and the rest of the White Sox) follow with a two-run homer the next inning. K.C. needs power, and Jacobs provides that.

Jacobs enters the organization immediately as the Royals' best power hitter, and the Royals got him for a reliever that I don't foresee playing any greater role than as a right-handed reliever (which are a dime a dozen in the Majors).

I also like the thought of Jacobs working with Seitzer. Kevin has a hit-to-all-fields approach much like Jacobs, and I'm hoping that Kevin will be able to get the best out of him.

I'm not lumping you in with all Royals fans, Jfish, but I was surprised how many were upset that Moore was talking about trading Teahen. Last year was his magical 27th year, and he didn't look so magical to me. Still, Moore was taking a lot of heat for talking trade on a guy that many fans still think will come around. It seems like a lot of fans talk both ways (don't trade 27-year-old Teahen, don't trade for 28-year-old Jacobs). Again, just my observation.

If the Royals would have given up Rosa, I would have liked the trade a lot less, but I just don't see the upside with Nunez. I think at worst, K.C. is breaking even on this deal.




1. OBP is about four times more important than SLG. Getting on base is the most important single skill an offensive player can possess, and Jacobs is terrible; no way around that.

2. Jacobs does possess impressive power, but there's no reason to think Butler or, in particular, Ka'aihue, can't better his overall offensive value. Kila's numbers and developmental trends suggest he is a force in the making; he has been better than Ryan Howard on a similar developmental curve.

3. Nunez is worth more than this; a reliever who can get AL hitters out has value. I'm not saying he could bring in a better player (overall) than Jacobs, but one of similar individual value at a position of actual need.

4. Teahen has more value because of his defensive flexibility. I would be happy to trade him, under the principle every GM should adopt (and adhere to):

There is no such thing as an untradeable player. If the available return is greater than your asset's worth, pull the trigger.

This, of course, is not a simple equation at all; it must include things like positional scarcity, money, roster flexibility, and (ugh) even chemistry. I'm just saying: I don't have anything against the concept of trading Teahen (or Meche, Greinke, Soria, Gordon, etc.)--if the return is right.
Posted by: fiveboltmain23

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 06:12 PM

Quote:

Flatly--you're wrong. Very, very wrong. Jacobs is among the worst players in the major leagues. He is old, and his skills do not profile to age well.




Old? The guy's younger than Ryan Shealy.

I won't even compare the two's careers thus far.
Posted by: Hawk1990

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 06:57 PM

Quote:

Old? The guy's younger than Ryan Shealy.

I won't even compare the two's careers thus far.




Well I will. Shealy wasn't healthy in '07, but he was fine in both '06 and '08. Add up his numbers for the Royals in those two years and you get this:

71 G, 266 AB, 41 R, 76 H, 14 HR, 56 RBI, 20 BB, .286 AVG, .343 OBP, .492 SLG.

Now extrapolate that out to the same number of games that Jacobs played this year (141) and you get this:

81 runs, 151 hits, 28 HRs, 111 RBI, 40 BB, .286/.343/.492

That's 14 more runs than Jacobs scored because Shealy gets on base more. That's 33 more hits than Jacobs had. That's only four fewer homers than Jacobs had, despite playing in a harder ballpark. That's 18 more RBI than Jacobs had, because Shealy can drive in runs with hits other than homers. And despite not walking much, that's still 4 more walks than Jacobs compiled. The batting average exceeds the league, the slugging percentage exceeds the league and the on-base percentage is just about dead even with the league. And on top of all that, he's under control longer, he's cheaper, he's a vastly better defensive first baseman and he wouldn't have cost the Royals Leo Nunez.

Given the same number of plate appearances as Jacobs, Shealy is not only just as good, he's actually significantly better than Jacobs. This should be apparent to anyone who follows the sport.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 08:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Old? The guy's younger than Ryan Shealy.

I won't even compare the two's careers thus far.




Well I will. Shealy wasn't healthy in '07, but he was fine in both '06 and '08. Add up his numbers for the Royals in those two years and you get this:

71 G, 266 AB, 41 R, 76 H, 14 HR, 56 RBI, 20 BB, .286 AVG, .343 OBP, .492 SLG.

Now extrapolate that out to the same number of games that Jacobs played this year (141) and you get this:

81 runs, 151 hits, 28 HRs, 111 RBI, 40 BB, .286/.343/.492

That's 14 more runs than Jacobs scored because Shealy gets on base more. That's 33 more hits than Jacobs had. That's only four fewer homers than Jacobs had, despite playing in a harder ballpark. That's 18 more RBI than Jacobs had, because Shealy can drive in runs with hits other than homers. And despite not walking much, that's still 4 more walks than Jacobs compiled. The batting average exceeds the league, the slugging percentage exceeds the league and the on-base percentage is just about dead even with the league. And on top of all that, he's under control longer, he's cheaper, he's a vastly better defensive first baseman and he wouldn't have cost the Royals Leo Nunez.

Given the same number of plate appearances as Jacobs, Shealy is not only just as good, he's actually significantly better than Jacobs. This should be apparent to anyone who follows the sport.




How dare you bring logic and reason into this discussion?
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 08:33 PM

I think everyone is overreacting to this trade. Seeing how we only gave up Nunez, I don't think we mortgaged our future.
Have we created a larger log jam at 1st base? Maybe. Or maybe Moore isn't finished moving players. The other players in the 1st base log jam haven't proved a thing yet, Jacobs has actually put up some power numbers.
Jacobs will still be relatively cheap. After his arbitration hearing, he'll be making around 3.5 million, guys that have the power numbers like Jacobs has, and the on base percentage that he lacks, go for about 10 million.
Jacobs proved that he can hit for power, he has done it. Last year he hit more homers than all the other players in the log jam have hit combined in their careers.
Jacobs still isn't the long term answer. The answer was drafted this past June, that would be Eric Hosmer.
Posted by: tyler

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 09:21 PM

We gave up Nunez. Its not like we traded Hochevar and Moustakas!! So what if we have a jam at 1st, competition in spring will only bring out the top players and that is what you as a manager are truly looking for.

I know the one thing me and Fish agree on, Gload needs to go.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 09:24 PM

Quote:

I know the one thing me and Fish agree on, Gload needs to go.




Here, Here.
Posted by: Jphog

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 10:09 PM

We could just release Gload, he's worthless. Shealy can play 1B and Jacobs can DH. Butler can go back to AAA and improve his game there. Not that hard to figure out.
Posted by: crzykufan987

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 10:20 PM

Honestly, how do we even know what Moore has cooking. You cannot be that upset about the trade. Do we even have a proven first basemen? No, we don't. None of those guys were proven in the very least. Shealy has shown sparks of brilliance, but has thus been very inconsistent. Butler? Still waiting, but we do know he is terrible in the field. Kila? We saw him have what, 20 at-bats? For all we know, Dayton made this trade to set forth an even bigger, better trade. Overall (and hopefully not surprisingly) I'm siding with Newell. There's no reason to jump overboard, as we're yet to find out what else will happen.
Posted by: Hawk1990

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 10:30 PM

Power is important, no one is saying otherwise. Homer totals and run totals are positively correlated, so there is value there.

That said, on-base ability is VASTLY more important than power. The positive correlation between team OBP and team run totals is nearly 1 (better than .90 in the AL this year, to be precise). So while a player like Jacobs, with his .299 OBP, is generally more of a drag on offensive output unless he's in a very specific situation. For instance, if he's in a lineup of otherwise good on-base guys, then his power can be of greater value.

But Jacobs isn't on that kind of team, he's on the Royals, the team that had the whopping total of THREE guys (DeJesus, Gordon, Aviles) get on base at a better than average rate. They will now have matching out machines in the four and five spots of the order in Guillen and Jacobs. On top of that, Jacobs isn't likely to repeat his 32 homer total because he'll be playing his home games in Kauffman Stadium.

Minus any other deals that will bring more OBP ability to the lineup, this deal alone actually makes the Royals' offense worse.
Posted by: Jphog

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 10:36 PM

How does it make it worse? You think Butler is better at this point in his career? OBP doesn't do you much good if nobody has the power to drive in runs from 1B. The royals hit TONS of singles last season, I remember there being lots of games where we would have all singles. It's hard to score runs that way.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 10:50 PM

Quote:

How does it make it worse? You think Butler is better at this point in his career? OBP doesn't do you much good if nobody has the power to drive in runs from 1B. The royals hit TONS of singles last season, I remember there being lots of games where we would have all singles. It's hard to score runs that way.




First of all--that's just wrong. By far, without a question, the most important thing a baseball player can do in a baseball game is to not make an out. This is paramount. Players who do not get on base are terrible baseball players. Say what you want about Adam Dunn...he strikes out a ton and has a terrible batting average--but he gets on base. Jacobs is like Dunn in that he has prodigious power and strikes out a lot--but he doesn't walk. Ever. He's not a good hitter.

And whoever said he'd be getting about $10MM on the open market: you have no idea what you're talking about. And: $3.5MM is way more money for less offensive production than Butler, Ka'aihue, or Shealy would provide.

People who are saying this is to make way for other moves, please defend your twisted logic. In what world is "trade for a guy you absolutely don't need so you can trade away younger, better, cheaper players" a good idea?

---

And yes, I do understand that, in itself, this is not that big of a deal. However, what the Royals need, more than anything else, is help in the OBP department. You know which was the only AL team to finish with fewer home runs than the Royals? The Twins, who came within one run of the playoffs. Power isn't the issue; walks are.

Moore attempted to fix the Royals' main offensive deficiency by acquiring a player even worse at getting on base than the younger, better, cheaper guys he will replace. The logic behind the move suggests ineptitude of the highest magnitude and should not be tolerated by the fans.
Posted by: Jphog

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 10:59 PM

How about the Angels who had a team OBP of .330 only 10 points higher than the royals. They won 100 games. You know why? Because their ERA was 3.99. The royals? 4.48

I think it is silly to put all the focus on OBP. I'd rather look at OPS if anything.

Oh and I think Moore might know a thing or two about baseball. To say that he should be fired because he traded fragile Nunez for a power hitter is ridiculous.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 11:16 PM

OPS is flawed because it rates getting on base and hitting for power evenly; this is wrong. Getting on base is about four times as important.
Jacobs makes this team worse by his presence and Nunez' absence. I'm not prepared to give Moore a pass for this just because he's the GM and I'm not. By objective statistical analysis, this trade is indefensible. It indicates a complete ignorance of readily available knowledge. We would have been much, much better off without the deal in the first place.
Posted by: tyler

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 11:16 PM

Stats for anyone who wants them:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6385

What if..

Good season-25HR. 90RBI. 70R. .260avg. 30doubles. .500SLG. and around a .320-.330 OBP. With this season he will have done his job of driving in runs along with the scare of being able to put the ball over the fence.

That is just me but I truly think this offense is making a move in the right direction

1. DeJesus (cf)
2. Alives (ss/2b)
3. Butler/Gordon (dh/1b) (3b)
4. Guillen (lf/rf)
5. Jacobs (1b/dh)
6. Butler/Gordon (dh/1b) (3b)
7. Olivo (C)
8. Teahen? (rf/lf)
9. Whoever is playing 2b/ss
Posted by: Jphog

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 11:20 PM

Which is worth more, a single/walk, a double, a triple, or a homerun?

Obviously we need to improve our hitting approach, and hopefully the necessary adjustments are being made in the minors so our system is producing more patient productive hitters. It takes time to change years of failure.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/30/08 11:38 PM

Tyler, I think your best case scenario is pretty unrealistic. Its not reasonable to think he'll be better in a harder league at a past-peak age than he's ever been before.
Posted by: tyler

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 12:05 AM

I was going off of what his statistical past has shown. The guy has played just over 400 games which is 2.5 seasons )full 162) so I do not believe in the peak has already passed.
Posted by: tyler

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 12:06 AM

BTW, I just noticed that you are only 70 some posts from Max.
Posted by: fiveboltmain23

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 12:08 AM

Compare Mike Jacobs stats to that of former Royals first baseman, Jeff King.

King through his first four years in the majors put together an OBP of .280. Over his next five, he put together an OBP of .350.

And going by your argument that OBP is four times more important than slugging percentage, I imagine that therefore means that Kevin Seitzer was ten times the player Bo Jackson was.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 12:30 AM

I mean that OBP is four times more correlated with winning percentage than is SLG. And Tyler, thanks for the heads up.
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 06:32 AM

The Royals need left handed power. Period. Jacobs is decent, not great, but he does fill a need at an affordable price.
Look for Moore to trade off some players to remove the log jam. I would not be surprised or upset if Butler was delt.
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 07:58 AM

While I question the move.....a lot.......as well....

I'm willing to be patient and see how it shakes out. While it's easy to play armchair GM, and I do it as well, it's funny to watch how some people on this board are so sure that they know EVERYthing....

While he may never be a "good" GM, time will tell, I'm still willing to bet Dayton Moore has 1000x the experience and knowledge of running a baseball team compared to anybody on this board including myself.

Some of you need to get over yourselves.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 09:59 AM

Quote:

While I question the move.....a lot.......as well....

I'm willing to be patient and see how it shakes out. While it's easy to play armchair GM, and I do it as well, it's funny to watch how some people on this board are so sure that they know EVERYthing....

While he may never be a "good" GM, time will tell, I'm still willing to bet Dayton Moore has 1000x the experience and knowledge of running a baseball team compared to anybody on this board including myself.

Some of you need to get over yourselves.




Moore absolutely does not have 1000 times (or even twice) the knowledge available to anyone on this board. Based on his moves, it's fair to say that Moore knows less about player evaluation than is available to any old loser with access to Baseball Prospectus.

The importance of on-base percentage is not a wild theory; it is a hard fact. OBP is more strongly correlated with success than any other offensive statistic. Jacobs defines the term "one-dimensional" in that the only thing he is good at is hitting a baseball a long way. He's a terrible defender and can't take a walk to save his life. He could be marginally useful on a team with very high-OBP guys hitting ahead of him; the Royals return exactly two players with even decent OBP skill.

Jacobs is a terrible fit for other reasons, too. He costs more money than would any of the other 1B/DH options, which is the worst kind of resource misallocation.

Finally, giving up on Butler at this age makes no sense whatsoever. He's 22 years old. Let me clarify: Brandon Rush, Russell Robinson, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun, and Brady Morningstar are all older than Billy Butler, who has over 700 major league at-bats. There is so much room for him to improve, and many factors suggest he will. Trading Billy Butler for a steep discount (which will happen as a result of this move) will haunt the Royals for the next decade.
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 10:05 AM

Quote:


Finally, giving up on Butler at this age makes no sense whatsoever. He's 22 years old. Let me clarify: Brandon Rush, Russell Robinson, Darnell Jackson, Sasha Kaun, and Brady Morningstar are all older than Billy Butler, who has over 700 major league at-bats. There is so much room for him to improve, and many factors suggest he will. Trading Billy Butler for a steep discount (which will happen as a result of this move) will haunt the Royals for the next decade.




To start with, in your rant, this was the only part I truly read. And I agree 100%.

Just sayin give the guy a chance, he's been the Royals GM for what a grand total of 2-3 years? When he came in the Royals were one of the 3 worst teams in baseball. He's trying.

And Jfish, a lot of your posts are good and make sense, but you are a law student, get over yourself that you are some genius that knows more than everyone who makes a (good) living doing this stuff. (exaggeration intended)
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:17 AM

The point is that I'm NOT any different than any other stiff who wants to know about baseball and statistical evaluation. All this information is readily available. I'm not holding my knowledge over anyone--it's all out there. I have a big problem with the notion that Moore knows more (or can know much more) than we do, because it's just not true. Some very forward-thinking front offices have better information than is publicly available about defense and baserunning, but we already know Jacobs is awful in those facets of the game.

That the average person who avails themselves of modern objective analysis knows this trade is crap but the general manager of the Kansas City Royals doesn't scares the hell out of me.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:20 AM

But don't take my word for it. Keith Law:

Jacobs deal compounds K.C.'s offensive problems

Friday, October 31, 2008 | Feedback | Print Entry

I addressed this briefly in chat Thursday, but it's worth reiterating: The Royals' trade for Mike Jacobs was a profoundly wrongheaded move.

Jacobs should not get regular playing time from a major league club, period. The fact that the Royals looked at him and thought, "Wow, everyday first baseman!" is terrifying, because it's so wrong. Jacobs:

• Is a horrendous on-base guy. He posted a .299 OBP in 2008, and even that was inflated by 10 intentional walks. Take those out and his OBP drops to .285. In the National League, no less. Players who make outs in over 70 percent of their plate appearances can't play every day in a corner spot unless the team's goal is to score as few runs as possible.

• Has a massive platoon split. In 338 career plate appearances against left-handed pitching in the majors, Jacobs is hitting .235/.275/.414. He's not any great shakes against right-handers -- his OBP against righties, removing intentional walks, was just .297 in 2008 -- but he is useless against lefties.

• Is a terrible defensive first baseman, possibly the worst in baseball. He has bad hands and no range and is bad enough that he probably needs to DH.

Acquiring Jacobs is a bad idea for any team, but the Royals were historically bad in an area where Jacobs is himself very, very bad. The 2008 Royals were just the third AL team since 1931 to finish a season with fewer than 400 walks drawn. Jacobs just makes a serious problem worse.

For the privilege of burning a roster spot on Jacobs, the Royals will pay him between $2 million and $3 million this year in arbitration while they have to find a platoon partner for him and pay that player as well, to say nothing of the higher salaries he'll earn in 2010 and 2011. (In fact, several industry sources told me they expected the Marlins would have non-tendered Jacobs in December.) They also added to a positional logjam; Billy Butler needs regular playing time and needs to DH, Ryan Shealy is still hanging around and is a good bet to outproduce Jacobs for less money, and Kila Ka'aihue just posted a combined .314/.449/.628 line between AA and AAA. He's not a great athlete and he's going to struggle some against better pitching, but Jacobs struggles against all pitching and Ka'aihue could top a .300 OBP in his sleep. That's before we consider Alex Gordon's struggles at third base and the chance that he'll end up at first. Jacobs is merely an intestinal obstruction in the digestive system of the Royals.

The player the Marlins received in return, Leo Nunez, is, in scouting parlance, "a guy." He can pitch in a big-league pen. He might grow up to be an eighth inning guy, but probably not. He costs nothing and can give you 60-70 decent innings. He throws strikes with a low-90s cutter, will flash a four-seamer up to 94-95, and throws a fringy slider; his changeup is poor and lefties hit him hard, although his arm slot might be all right for a splitter. He's under control for four more years and should be a good value for at least the first three even if he never develops a true swing-and-miss pitch.

Nunez is not a star, but he has value; the Marlins got that value for a player they were probably going to discard in two months, while the Royals just miscalculated badly and are threatening to exacerbate the biggest offensive problem in 2008, their lack of patience.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:26 AM

Rob Neyer:

If not for my lingering affection for the team of my misspent youth, this might strike me as funny. But instead it's a little sad and a little infuriating.

Mike Jacobs is not a good baseball player. He's just not. Jacobs' career OPS+ is 110. That number almost perfectly describes Jacobs' current abilities, as he has been quite consistent. Here are his OPS+ numbers for the past three years: 106, 100, 109. Good for a hitter, but not for a hitter who plays first base.

Yes, he did hit 32 home runs last season. To be a good hitter with a .299 on-base percentage, you have to hit at least 40 homers. Maybe 50.

Oh, and fielding? According to the numbers, Jacobs is one of the worst-fielding first basemen in the majors. He's lousy on bunts, he's lousy on the balls hit to his left, he's lousy on the balls hit to his right and he's lousy on … wait for it … the balls hit right at him.

I don't mean to suggest that Jacobs will be a disaster next season. He's only 28. If he can maintain the power and add 20 walks he won't be the worst first baseman (or DH) in the American League. But this is exactly the sort of trade a team like the Royals shouldn't be making. They've got organizational strength at exactly one spot: 1B/DH. With youngsters Butler and Ka'aihue, those two hitters' spots -- along with Alex Gordon and third base -- are essentially the only positions management should not be worrying about. Relievers are fungible, and Nuñez is just the sort of reliever who should be used as trade bait to fill holes on the roster.

That doesn't mean you just give him away.

The moment I learned that Moore had acquired Jacobs, I recalled this passage from an interview Moore gave to Joe Posnanski just a few weeks ago:

"We have to understand the importance of on-base percentage," Moore says, and he repeats those words -- "on-base percentage" -- about 29 times during the interview, which is good to hear. The last five years, the Royals have finished 12th, 13th, 11th, 13th and 13th in on-base percentage, and frankly it's really, really hard to score a lot of runs when you can't get on base (especially when you do not have much power -- and the Royals don't. Plus they play in a big ballpark).

Moore repeated on-base percentage 29 times in one interview. Dayton Moore gets it, finally … until his very first significant offseason move, when he acquires an everyday player who will, more than anything, be a drag on the team's on-base percentage. This is exactly the sort of thing the Royals would have done 20 years ago -- those teams were perennially OBP-challenged, too -- which, come to think of it, makes a lot of sense because the man making the moves 20 years ago was John Schuerholz. Moore's mentor before he got his job with the Royals? John Schuerholz.

Moore was supposed to build Schuerholz's winning Braves of the 1990s. But instead he's rebuilding Schuerholz's losing Royals of the late 1980s and early '90s. And we had such high hopes for the young man.
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:31 AM

Quote:

While I question the move.....a lot.......as well....





JFIsh, before you flood the board with even more OPINIONS. Read my own quote
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:33 AM

Quote:

The point is that I'm NOT any different than any other stiff who wants to know about baseball and statistical evaluation.





You sure you believe that?

Anybody in this thread that disagreed with you (which btw, I never said it was a good trade, just playing a wait-and-see approach) you make such statements as "You are wrong - very, very wrong" etc.

You just come off looking like a complete douche.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:33 AM

Talk to me on June 1 when Ka'aihue is bending the minor leagues to his will and Jacobs is sitting .220/.280/.450.
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:36 AM

Quote:

Talk to me on June 1 when Ka'aihue is bending the minor leagues to his will and Jacobs is sitting .220/.280/.450.




My Alzheimer's won't let me remember this conversation on June 1.

Remind me then.

Just make sure you do it whether you're "right" or "wrong"

m'kay?
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The point is that I'm NOT any different than any other stiff who wants to know about baseball and statistical evaluation.





You sure you believe that?

Anybody in this thread that disagreed with you (which btw, I never said it was a good trade, just playing a wait-and-see approach) you make such statements as "You are wrong - very, very wrong" etc.

You just come off looking like a complete douche.




I absolutely believe that I don't know anything about baseball than any average person can know. People much more familiar with objective analysis than me (Law, Neyer, and Jazeyerli come to mind) all condemn the deal and come to similar conclusions about the arguments raised in favor of the trade.
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 11:39 AM

Quote:


I absolutely believe that I don't know anything about baseball than any average person can know. People much more familiar with objective analysis than me (Law, Neyer, and Jazeyerli come to mind) all condemn the deal and come to similar conclusions about the arguments raised in favor of the trade.




LOL - again, I question the trade as well, you don't have to "convince" me.

You are missing my point.
Posted by: Merg311

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 12:14 PM

Talking about the Royals in October?!?!? It's been 23 years since this last occurred!
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 07:31 PM

I don't think Jacobs is past his prime, I think at 28 he is the middle of his prime, he should have his best years now. If he can give me 3 years averaging .250, 25HR's, 80-90 RBI's, I'll be happy. In 3 years, Eric Hosmer should be close to being the Royals regular first baseman.
I agree with you that Jacobs OBP keeps him from being a very good player, but the player you want will cost 10 million per year, not the 3 million that Jacobs will get..
This move is not the only move the Royals make, I this this is a first in a series of moves.
Posted by: Hawk1990

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 09:12 PM

Quote:

...I agree with you that Jacobs OBP keeps him from being a very good player, but the player you want will cost 10 million per year, not the 3 million that Jacobs will get...




Not true. Using your own criteria (At least 25 homers, 85 RBI and .250 AVG, plus an OBP that is at a league average mark of .340), here are a few guys who played a corner spot in the infield or outfield last year and posted those numbers or better, yet are still easily affordable by a team like the Royals:

Aubrey Huff - $8 million
Carlos Pena - $6 million
Ryan Ludwick - $411,000
Xavier Nady - $3.35 million
Brad Hawpe - $3.9 million
Jason Bay - $6 million
Kevin Youkilis - $3 million
Adam LaRoche - $5 million
Adrian Gonzalez - $875,000
Josh Hamilton - $397,000
Carlos Quentin - $400,000

Almost all of those guys was a free agent at some point, or was traded by his original club, or (in the case of Youkilis) was offered to the Royals in a trade only to be turned down. And I didn't even get into younger players like Nate McLouth and David Wright and Evan Longoria who were developed by their own teams and are still dirt cheap. Some of these guys, like Ludwick and LaRoche and Pena and Nady, precisely fit the Kila Ka'aihue or Ryan Shealy mold of guys who weren't considered grade A prospects and panned out anyway because some team gave them the chance to play.

With decisions like the Jacobs deal, it's not surprising that none of these guys has ever played for the Royals.
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 10/31/08 09:35 PM

I can't argue with those stats, however, I was basing my argument based on an OBP higher than the league average. Your argument may still prove valid.
IMO, Jacobs addition makes them better than they were. I don't think he is being a road block to anyones career. Butler will play somewhere if he produces, KK needs to replicate his AA numbers in Omaha for most of next year, and I look for Shealy to be delt.
Giving up Nunez makes this trade worth the gamble, I'd make that trade everyday if i could.
Posted by: Hawk1990

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/01/08 06:59 AM

Shealy isn't likely to be dealt. He is out of options and that's public knowledge, so few teams are going to deal for a guy who may well be released anyway. Which is yet another reason why the Jacobs deal doesn't make sense to me, because it's been reported that the Marlins were looking to release Jacobs outright rather than go to arbitration with him. Why give up one of your trading chips for a guy you can sign off the street?
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/01/08 07:28 AM

Because all it cost you was Leo Nunez to ensure you got the guy you wanted.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/01/08 02:54 PM

A fine strategy except for that the guy they wanted sucks.
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/01/08 06:01 PM

Like I said before, I'll trade Nunez for Jacobs all day long.
KC is a team that has been depending on Mark Teahen for left handed power, so in my eyes they have improved themselves. No, they didn't get a guy with a .400 plus OBP, that would have been great, but they got a guy who is servicable until Hosmer (the guy they want eventually) is ready.
I don't want to hear they have the same player already in Shealy or KK, we don't know that, they may never pan out. With Jacobs you have a guy that should get you 25 HR's 80-100 RBI, and around .240 OBP, maybe .260 if he learns to take a walk.
I'm not trying to convince anyone this guy is a great player, I'm just saying the Royals improved themselves in a small way, they pretty much got him for nothing. If he can't play, they have Butler put on a glove and do his Mike Sweeney imitation.
You know how valuable OBP is, I know, almost everyone knows, as does Dayton Moore. It is easy for us to say we need that kind of player, but Moore has to actually make the trade or sign the guy.
Jacobs is pretty much a low risk gamble, nothing to lose.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/01/08 06:10 PM

Quote:

I don't want to hear they have the same player already in Shealy or KK, we don't know that, they may never pan out. With Jacobs you have a guy that should get you 25 HR's 80-100 RBI, and around .240 OBP, maybe .260 if he learns to take a walk.




A) It's not really fair to say "I don't want to hear [the best and most important argument against Moore's trade for Jacobs.]"

B) I'm not saying we already people who are as good as Jacobs. We already have people that are better.

C) I'm not going to jump on you for mistaking OBP for batting average. I know what you meant. I will, however, insist that RBI's mean very, very little when evaluating hitters on an individual basis.

---

I get it, people--he hit 30 home runs, is only 28, and only (?) costs a middle reliever. All of these things are true.

It's ignorant of reality to think, however, that (1) he's going to be as good (?) or better in the AL at a past-prime age, (2) that the Royals don't have three better options at first base already available, (3) that this was the best we could do for Nunez, and (4) that this trade represents progress or improvement on the part of Moore's decision-making.
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/01/08 10:55 PM

Just a couple of quick questions, how can you say the Royals have three better options at first already on the roster? Shealy, no way, isn't he older than Jacobs? Butler? Way to big of a gamble to start him at first. He makes Mike Sweeney look like a gold glover at this point. Kila Ka'alhue? I would rather see him start the year out in AAA, if he repeats his AA performance, bring him up.
Yes, I know the difference between OBP and BA, just got my stats mixed up. Bad on my part.
Although I don't agree with you that at age 28 he is past his prime, IMO he is in his prime producing years now, that said, I am concerned that in terms of OBP his numbers have declined each year he has played.
Time will tell on this move, I'll let it play out.
Posted by: Hawk1990

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/02/08 09:57 AM

I think anyone who is writing off Shealy as a more valid option than Jacobs is missing the boat. Yes, he's older (by 10 whole months), and yes, he hasn't posted a full big league season like Jacobs yet. True.

Now look at the reasons why. First, Shealy played college ball while Jacobs didn't, so he entered pro ball three years after Jacobs did, yet still managed to make the big leagues the same year Jacobs was first called up. Why did Shealy catch up to Jacobs? Because he destroyed minor league pitching. His rookie ball OPS was 1.194 (Jacobs' was .869). He jumped straight to High A ball and posted an OPS of .895 (Jacobs' was .669 at that level). Then came a year of destroying Double A to the tune of a .980 OPS (Jacobs' was .943, also excellent but not quite Shealy's mark). Then came a .994 OPS in his first year of Triple A (compared to .519 for Jacobs), and a call up to the bigs, where he OPS'd .886 (22% above the league average).

Despite that, he was farmed out again the next year. Why? Because he sucked? No, he still OPS'd .919 in Triple A. His problem, his sole problem, was that he was stuck playing first base in an NL organization that didn't need a DH and had a possible future Hall of Famer, Todd Helton, camped at first base for the big club. But he continued to rake, and continued to have good trade value, so finally the Rockies dealt him away for pitching, and he promptly OPS'd .789 for a bad Royals team (just above league average).

So he had the first base job won going into 2007, and would finally get his shot to be a big league regular. What happened? He got hurt, which led to a bad start, a demotion, and finally having his season ended early. Opportunity lost.

Did he sulk? Did he hang them up? Nope, he arrived in Spring Training in shape and healthy and promptly raked the ball (.273 avg, .576 SLG, tied for the team lead in homers), only to see the Royals hand his job to Ross Gload. So he goes back to Triple A yet again, and posts another solid year (.879 OPS), earning yet another call up where he led the big leagues in homers for much of September and posted an OPS+ of 152.

In short, once you account for his injury year in '07 and the fact that he was blocked in Colorado, there is no reason to look at Shealy's record and think he can't produce at least at Jacobs' level in a full-time role, and likely better. He outperformed Jacobs at every level of the minors. Take away his '07 injury year and Shealy has also outperformed Jacobs at the big league level. In all non-injury big league time, Shealy has hit .295/.358/.486. That's a .844 OPS, compared to Jacobs' .816, and it's weighted better by including an above average on-base percentage.

Add in the fact that he's a better defender and is cheaper, in terms of both dollars and talent needed to obtain him, and it's inexplicable to me why the Royals didn't give him the everyday first base job next year and use Nunez in a different deal for a catcher or corner outfielder. If they still didn't have some hope for him, then why call him up in September at the expense of big-league at bats for Ka'aihue? If there were questions about him, why not answer them by letting him play every day at first base this season instead of wasting everyone's time by giving those at bats to Ross Gload? I cannot understand why the Royals have handled him the way they have.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 11/11/08 05:44 PM

Why the hell didn't we just ask for Josh Willingham instead?
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/01/09 08:26 PM

Quote:

I'm going to have to disagree. I like Shealy a lot, but this was a steal for Dayton. The Royals haven't had a guy hit 30 home runs since Jermaine Dye. Here, they got a legitimate power guy who is entering his prime (turned 28 today) for Nunez, a frequently injured reliever with a violent motion who never proved he could handle the workload of a starter. Around the league, I'm sure people are shaking their heads wondering why the Marlins would make such a deal. Remember, also, that Shealy is no spring chicken (29). This is a steal for Dayton, whether the Royals needed a first baseman or not.




*COUGH*
Posted by: georgiahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/01/09 08:30 PM

But he is so cute with that wad in his mouth. BTW, why does he always bite his batting glove between pitches?
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/01/09 08:33 PM

Quote:

But he is so cute with that wad in his mouth. BTW, why does he always bite his batting glove between pitches?




Why do you continue to watch on TV?
Posted by: georgiahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/01/09 08:45 PM

Where else would I watch?
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 09:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Talk to me on June 1 when Ka'aihue is bending the minor leagues to his will and Jacobs is sitting .220/.280/.450.




My Alzheimer's won't let me remember this conversation on June 1.

Remind me then.

Just make sure you do it whether you're "right" or "wrong"

m'kay?




In a friendly, I know we're on the same page now kind of way:

.229/.310/.416

This was an entirely lucky guess (and yeah, it's July 2, not June 1) but I missed his OPS by .004!
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 10:38 AM

I have no problem saying you were right. You nailed it head-on.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 01:43 PM

JFish — Where's my crow? I'm here to eat it.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 01:44 PM

Quote:

JFish — Where's my crow? I'm here to eat it.




Look up.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 01:49 PM

I saw the, um, bumped post.

I will say this. I think this trade hurt the Royals more than it helped the Marlins. Nunez isn't lighting the world on fire with the Fish.

But the trade did block either Shealy or Kila from the lineup. Right now, the Royals need Kila more than anyone else. He's at least walking.
Posted by: theno1kufan

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 01:51 PM

then what do we do with Jacobs? do you want to be the one that takes the baseball bat to his knees?
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 01:53 PM

Quote:

I saw the, um, bumped post.

I will say this. I think this trade hurt the Royals more than it helped the Marlins. Nunez isn't lighting the world on fire with the Fish.

But the trade did block either Shealy or Kila from the lineup. Right now, the Royals need Kila more than anyone else. He's at least walking.




In no way is the Jacobs trade the difference between contention and putridity, but it's just the kind of move that can't be made by a team with such comparatively limited resources. I'd love to see Kila get his shot, but I'm scared to death of how it would be handled. Would starting his season 2-23 or something effectively end his Royals career? Kila needs to be handed a close-to-full-time job and given the chance to adjust to the majors and show what he can do.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 02:00 PM

To be totally fair, JFish, you did say June 1 with your prediction.

Jacobs didn't play on June 1, but on May 31 he was:

.248/.330/.478

That's not a ton better than your prediction of .220/.280/.450, but obviously his recent numbers have tumbled since his horrible June.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 02:04 PM

Quote:

To be totally fair, JFish, you did say June 1 with your prediction.

Jacobs didn't play on June 1, but on May 31 he was:

.248/.330/.478

That's not a ton better than your prediction of .220/.280/.450, but obviously his recent numbers have tumbled since his horrible June.




Noted. You'll have to take it on my word, though...I wasn't waiting until now to pounce on this thread...I'd forgotten all about it until yesterday.

In any case, the point isn't that I was right about him not being good at baseball. The point is that Dayton's a miserable constructor of major league rosters and shouldn't be given another offseason.
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 02:21 PM

Quote:


In any case, the point isn't that I was right about him not being good at baseball. The point is that Dayton's a miserable constructor of major league rosters and shouldn't be given another offseason.




As the person who Fish was discussing that aspect with:

Doesn't matter if it was June 1 or July 1 or August 1 with those numbers, it was a failure.

As someone who was willing to let it play out and argued with Fish as so - (though I still stand by what I said last offseason to let it play out) - It did, and overall - the majority of his moves have led to failures.

Time for him to go. I agree with the statement I quoted from Fishey.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 02:56 PM

I didn't think Fish was just waiting to produce these numbers until after Jacobs struggled. I was just pointing out that, on June 1, Jacobs seemed much more valuable than he does right now.

I've already asked for my crow. I admitted that he was right on with his original posts and I was not. I figured Jacobs would at least be as good power-wise as he was last year, and he hasn't been. JFish deserves credit for seeing this before it actually happened.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/02/09 03:02 PM

Also, anyone who isn't caught up on Joe and Rany's takes on the way the Royals handle injuries really ought to. It's a pretty scathing indictment of the organization.
Posted by: abc123

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/03/09 05:09 PM

On another note, can we end the Shealy talks? That seemed to be pretty popular in the offseason. He's been on the DL since May 8th and will turn 30 in August. His ship has sailed.

Ka'aihue's only batting .265 but that .402 OPB means even if he starts 2-23 as you said JFish, that'll take at least 30-35 PA's. Like you said, you can't teach walks. The guy will always have a good eye.
Posted by: abc123

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/03/09 05:15 PM

JFish, speaking of injuries, is there any chance Jacobs is playing hurt? We heard all about how Crisp and Aviles "toughed" it out without telling anyone. I could also see Jacobs doing that.

His first two months, he had 9 HR's and 25 RBI's w/ .248/ .330/.478.

In June, 1 HR, 2 RBI's w/ .189/.268/.284. Something has to be wrong. That's an incredible drop off after 2 seemingly decent HR total months.
Posted by: Hawk1990

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/03/09 08:28 PM

Quote:

On another note, can we end the Shealy talks? That seemed to be pretty popular in the offseason. He's been on the DL since May 8th and will turn 30 in August. His ship has sailed.




It's fair now in hindsight because he got hurt again, but I maintain that the presence of Shealy made the Jacobs trade bad even before Ka'aihue's presence is taken into account. Unless Shealy had a known injury that was obviously going to ruin his upcoming season, there was no reason to believe he couldn't put up up better numbers than Jacobs if given the full-time first base job.
Posted by: theno1kufan

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/03/09 11:28 PM

Quote:

JFish, speaking of injuries, is there any chance Jacobs is playing hurt? We heard all about how Crisp and Aviles "toughed" it out without telling anyone. I could also see Jacobs doing that.

His first two months, he had 9 HR's and 25 RBI's w/ .248/ .330/.478.

In June, 1 HR, 2 RBI's w/ .189/.268/.284. Something has to be wrong. That's an incredible drop off after 2 seemingly decent HR total months.




yeah, he sucks just like the rest of the team(greinke and soria aside)
Posted by: jayhwk01

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/04/09 12:55 AM

He does not suck....for what he is. The fact is the guy should not be batting against left handed pitching and frankly is not an everyday player because of it. The Royals tried to make him into something he is not and that is not Jacobs fault.

Now as far as injury goes....could be. He is at this point playing below his baseline.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/05/09 12:59 AM

01, you're in the group of folks around here I don't snap at because you're consistently well-reasoned, but you're wrong on Jacobs. He's bad at baseball, which is troubling when you're paid to be good at it. He's a lost cause and should be jettisoned at the first opportunity.

As to the injury question...I'd buy it if his early numbers were consistent with his career numbers and forward-looking projections. They were not. The hitter you see now IS Mike Jacobs.
Posted by: jayhwk01

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/05/09 11:39 AM

I would agree on getting rid of him at the first opportunity. Time to bring up some of these guys in the minors and see what they can do. I still think he has some value as a reserve.....just not with the Royals and his salary level.
Posted by: jamboslice

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/05/09 08:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Yeah I don't really understand the move with the plethora or 1B/DH's that the Royals have...





...especially given that Jacobs is worse than three of them (Butler, Shealy, Ka'aihue). Jacobs is 28 years old, shows skills which do not stand to improve over time, and won't come close to 32 home runs at Kauffman. This is a disastrous move on a number of fronts, some of which I've already addressed.

1. He does not present an upgrade over the available options.
2. He represents that the Royals are giving up on at least one (and seemingly two) of the best hitting prospects in the organization (Butler and Ka'aihue).
3. The trade shows a clear mismanagement of assets. Nunez was a valuable chip. While trading him is not necessarily a mistake, using him to obtain Mike Jacobs is awful (for the aforementioned reasons).

While calling for Dayton's firing is clearly rash, it is not a reaction to this move alone. This move merely represents a consistent failure on Moore's part to allocate assets responsibly and efficiently.




Even though Jacobs is terrible right now he could still potentially get 25 home runs. His old stadium was a big ball park too. I could give a crap about this guy right now, all I care about is the Crow signing.
Posted by: jamboslice

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/05/09 08:30 PM

Quote:

JFish, speaking of injuries, is there any chance Jacobs is playing hurt? We heard all about how Crisp and Aviles "toughed" it out without telling anyone. I could also see Jacobs doing that.




Ha except for the fact Aviles isn't even hurt, they just put him on the fake DL specifically for players that are horrible and can't make contact on the ball below his shoulder area.
Posted by: jnewell

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/05/09 08:42 PM

Quote:



Ha except for the fact Aviles isn't even hurt, they just put him on the fake DL specifically for players that are horrible and can't make contact on the ball below his shoulder area.




Uh.......

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/1301887.html

I don't think you give someone reconstructive elbow surgery just to carry on a "fake" injury.
Posted by: abc123

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/06/09 01:03 AM

Quote:



Ha except for the fact Aviles isn't even hurt, they just put him on the fake DL specifically for players that are horrible and can't make contact on the ball below his shoulder area.




Sry, i have to add on to this. So the Royals are making Aviles sit out the rest of the year on a "fake" injury?
Posted by: jaihaux

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/06/09 09:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Ha except for the fact Aviles isn't even hurt, they just put him on the fake DL specifically for players that are horrible and can't make contact on the ball below his shoulder area.




Sry, i have to add on to this. So the Royals are making Aviles sit out the rest of the year on a "fake" injury?




Complete with fake surgery.
Posted by: jamboslice

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/07/09 09:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Ha except for the fact Aviles isn't even hurt, they just put him on the fake DL specifically for players that are horrible and can't make contact on the ball below his shoulder area.




Sry, i have to add on to this. So the Royals are making Aviles sit out the rest of the year on a "fake" injury?




Just a frustrated joke... I just really wanted him to be good so we don't have to keep searching for a SS
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/23/09 09:40 AM

Dayton, in this morning's Star:

“I go back to the same thing all of the time,” he said. “If our processes were so poor, how were we able to put together a pretty good team in the off-season?"

You weren't, Dayton, you weren't.

"Our processes are good. Our processes are consistent. We’re not right all of the time, but the effort is there, the passion is there and we will get this thing done without a doubt in my mind as we move forward. I believe that with all of my heart.”

Fire Dayton.
Posted by: EastCoastJHawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/24/09 12:03 PM

Quote:



Fire Dayton.




Co-sign.
Posted by: theno1kufan

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/24/09 12:07 PM

ok look, dm has been here what 2 or 3 years now? the cupboard wasn't exactly full when he got here he needs more time to build up the farm system it just takes time to build a team in baseball more so than any other sport

dm needs at least another 2 or 3 years, th on the other hand....
Posted by: abc123

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/24/09 12:24 PM

so its all Daytons fault that this team has blown a lead in every game in the 2nd half, including four leads in the 8th inning?

might as well fire Trey since he cant ever bring in the right reliever.

Are you telling me if the Royals held on to just all four 8th inning leads, you would have still bumped this thread?

If we started 4-2 against the Rays and Angels, it would be a lot different mood among KC fans
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/24/09 02:21 PM

Quote:

so its all Daytons fault that this team has blown a lead in every game in the 2nd half, including four leads in the 8th inning?

might as well fire Trey since he cant ever bring in the right reliever.

Are you telling me if the Royals held on to just all four 8th inning leads, you would have still bumped this thread?

If we started 4-2 against the Rays and Angels, it would be a lot different mood among KC fans




First of all, the important part isn't when I bumped this thread. What's important (from my perspective) is that I've called for Dayton's firing for many months now.

And yes, the fact that this team is so miserably constructed as to be prone to losing the kinds of games it's losing is directly attributable to Dayton being bad at his job.
Posted by: jammahawk

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/24/09 09:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

so its all Daytons fault that this team has blown a lead in every game in the 2nd half, including four leads in the 8th inning?

might as well fire Trey since he cant ever bring in the right reliever.

Are you telling me if the Royals held on to just all four 8th inning leads, you would have still bumped this thread?

If we started 4-2 against the Rays and Angels, it would be a lot different mood among KC fans




First of all, the important part isn't when I bumped this thread. What's important (from my perspective) is that I've called for Dayton's firing for many months now.

And yes, the fact that this team is so miserably constructed as to be prone to losing the kinds of games it's losing is directly attributable to Dayton being bad at his job.




It's a waste of time to call for DM's job. A good argument can be made for either keeping him or not. The Royals organization has bought into the strategy of drafting high school players and signing very young Latin players.
If what is perceived to be the Royals future presently in the low minors never materializes, then the organization should remove DM.
The Royals need to get over the idea of firing their way back to respectability. It didn't work when they fired Boone, Muser, Pena, Baird, and it won't work if they fire Moore before his long range plan has been given a chance to succeed.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: Fire Dayton - 07/26/09 04:45 AM

I don't disagree with you in the slightest that Moore's strength won't be felt for a few years. But it's painfully obvious that he doesn't know what to do with a major league roster, and its not like the young guys he's drafted and signed go away if we fire him. No reason we can't find a competent major league GM and still reap the benefits of the current farm system. It doesn't have to be a tradeoff.