We will go as far as the twins take us

Posted by: DantheMan

We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 01:13 PM

OK, it's just a pre-season theory, but hang with me.

Collins and Aldrich are great players, but we know we need higher level, more consistent contributions from the supporting cast to win the championship. Goodman, and some others, think the key to our season is the arrival of X as our third scorer.

I disagree. I think X will be a good player, and he can help us stretch opposing defenses, but I would argue that our season more tightly aligned with the performance of the twins. When KU plays the other elite teams in the country, the frontline is going to set the tone for the game.

KU's perimeter matches up pretty well with anyone. But when I look at Texas, MSU, UNC, and UK, I see a lot of beef inside. How our frontline fares against James, Pittman, Chapman, Roe, Morgan, Nix, Davis, Zeller, Wear Bros, Thompson, Patterson, Cousins, and Orton will set the tone for the game, decide who has more shots and possessions, and, ultimately, decide our fate.

The Morrises anchor Aldrich's help inside, and can do so many things. They give us muscle, inside/out scoring, ball handling, passing, experience and stability. It's easy to see that these things help a team win, but hidden to some is the fact that most of these things also directly affect Aldrich's ability to stay out of foul trouble. For example, without the twins, who would Self look to for inside scoring help? How often would Aldrich be around the ball, winded, just because Self felt like he couldn't take him out? How often will Aldrich be caught out of position, because of someone's mistake?

I think the twins must be what we think they are: improved, stronger versions of last year's duo. Robinson and Withey will help, but they will need time to grow, and they haven't been through an NCAA tournament yet. Neither has X.

Agree? Disagree?

Edit: Meant to include DeMarcus Cousins to list of frontcourt challenges, if we play UK.
Posted by: Z8RR8

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 01:17 PM

Somewhat agree.


Twins definitely need to have improved this off season for us to win a title. I think they showed alot last night because they looked more aggressive and stronger and not lost like they did sometimes last year.

Its going to be good because we have a bunch of guys who like contact and will dish it out and tire the defenses (Morris Twins, Robinson, Henry, Aldrich) they all like to get in there and mix it up.
Posted by: SashasVodka

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 01:23 PM

I don't think there is anyone who is quite as deep as us in the frontcourt. UNC has 3 deep and UK has 3 deep, but both of those teams have at least 2 frosh. UT is scary with Pittman and James.

But what we have is depth, and in college ball, fouls to give might be the most important asset to have in the frontcourt. With Cole's maturity and the TRob and Withey at 4 and 5. We will give alot of teams fits when it comes to foul trouble and forcing them to work for their buckets.

As for the twins in particular, they combined for 8 blocks + steals, 1 TO and 7 assists. Granted it's exhibition against FHSU, but we need to be more worried about replacing these guys next year than with them being the weak link.
Posted by: HunterThompson

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 01:25 PM

My take is that there is no "1" key. Could we have won without any 1 piece in 08? I don't think so. We needed every single body. RR was as important as BR who was as important as DA. SK coming off the bench was as important as DJ being a bruiser who was as important as SC coming in to provide a breather to MC....etc, etc.

I keep reading about how there is this "one key ingredient", but we should know by now that Coach Self produces TEAMS. There is no "1 key". Everybody has to play to their role.
Posted by: 5DecadeHawk

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 01:28 PM

If we will go as far as the twins take us, which posters are about to get thrown down the stairs?
Posted by: theno1kufan

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 02:19 PM

Quote:

My take is that there is no "1" key. Could we have won without any 1 piece in 08? I don't think so. We needed every single body. RR was as important as BR who was as important as DA. SK coming off the bench was as important as DJ being a bruiser who was as important as SC coming in to provide a breather to MC....etc, etc.

I keep reading about how there is this "one key ingredient", but we should know by now that Coach Self produces TEAMS. There is no "1 key". Everybody has to play to their role.




Brady didn't do jack that year.
Posted by: KanedaMGM

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 02:23 PM

Could have been because of the redshirt maybe??
Posted by: theno1kufan

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 02:25 PM

Quote:

Could have been because of the redshirt maybe??




lighten the [censored] up
Posted by: stumptownhawk

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 02:26 PM

We need the twins to spread the floor.

With them hitting the outside shot Cole gets to own the paint!

Coaches have got to be worried about leaving the paint on our high low rotation.

Doubling down with a guard is not gonna stop CA.
Posted by: KMan_24

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 02:52 PM

I think Sherron not having to play 37 minutes a game is definitely a key above all others. If teams have to honor the ability of other guards to score, it will make it so much easier for him. In 07-08, no one played more than 30 mpg.
Posted by: Hawklin

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 03:01 PM

Teams have to match up honestly at every position.


Seriously, what do you do for strategy if you are an opposing coach? Last year they doubled up on Cole, so Coach moved the ball through Marcus. You just cant double Cole anymore without getting smoked from all over.
Posted by: 5DecadeHawk

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 03:15 PM

Quote:

Teams have to match up honestly at every position.


Seriously, what do you do for strategy if you are an opposing coach? Last year they doubled up on Cole, so Coach moved the ball through Marcus. You just cant double Cole anymore without getting smoked from all over.




I think the key for an opposing coach trying to think through matchups vs Kansas will be to attempt to force Self to matchup with the opponent.

Izzo probably did this the best last year. Goran Suton was a pain in the butt for Aldrich to try to guard. He was big and strong, but could still hit the outside jumper. None of our other bigs had the strength to match him inside.

Craig Brackens was another big that could hit from the outside and we all saw how he lit us up.

Until Xavier starts playing better defense, KU will still be vulnerable to a tall guard or small forward that can hit from the outside.

Once another team can force Bill Self to adjust to what they are doing, they BEGIN to have a prayer... but KU has a lot more weapons, both on offense and defense this year to adjust.

We have tools to handle these situations much better this year, but not all of those tools are sharpened to a razors edge yet.
Posted by: DantheMan

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 04:17 PM

Sasha: UNC goes six deep on the frontline (not three): Henson, Davis, Zeller, Wear Brothers, Thompson. We can match them on numbers, but my assertion is that we need the improved twins to match UNC's ability.

To everyone else: What I would say to the "there is no one key" rebuttal is that this is only true as long as we play inferior competition. The twins don't have to play well against FHSU, or maybe even OSU or Michigan. There are others that would likely pick them up.

But when we play against similar athletes, or intense defensive pressure, we will need the experience, scoring and flow that only the improved twins can provide. If they don't show up in these games, I'm saying we lose, and there are no other players on this roster that I can say would change this.

Do you think Robinson or Withey will pick up the slack in such a game, if the twins aren't as good as we hope, or have a bad game against such competition? Will X? Are you willing to rely on "the open man", like the 2008 team did? That team had veterans at every position, and, not only could they hit the open shot, but they could create their own.

The bottom line, to me, is that Aldrich needs help inside, if this team is going to get where they want. We have guards out the wazoo, which is good, but our toughest competition will be laiden with deep and/or physical frontlines. The logical places to look right now for help are the twins.

It's a working theory, but I'm 70% buying it right now. If Robinson turns into an all-Conference type player, X an All-American, or Aldrich POY, I'll dump the theory.
Posted by: 5DecadeHawk

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 04:31 PM

Quote:

The bottom line, to me, is that Aldrich needs help inside, if this team is going to get where they want. We have guards out the wazoo, which is good, but our toughest competition will be laiden with deep and/or physical frontlines. The logical places to look right now for help are the twins.





The only team in the country I see competing with Kansas in having as deep and as physical front line would be Texas.


I challenge you to name another team that comes close.
Posted by: DantheMan

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 05:56 PM

Quote:


The only team in the country I see competing with Kansas in having as deep and as physical front line would be Texas.


I challenge you to name another team that comes close.




IMO, deep and physical is not relevant. I'll put it this way: substitute the Morrises for two more Robinsons. We're just as deep and physical, but we're not the same team.

The Morrises give KU more than depth and physicality. The whole offense flows better when one or both are in the game, and I think this will be magnified against pressure defense.

I'll try to answer the question, though. Texas is deep and physical. Michigan State is deep and physical throughout their lineup. That game would be a war. UNC is deep, talented, and long, but not physical. UK is deep and talented, and pretty physical, unless Calipari's system screws that up. There will be other teams that will try to muddy up the game against us, even though they aren't deep or talented.
Posted by: JFish26

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 06:05 PM

I disagree with the notion that this team goes as far as any player takes it. This team is built with redundancies. If and when we lose, it will be due to multiple failures, not one or two.
Posted by: appyhawk

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 08:03 PM

Yep.
Which is why quality depth is the key to how far we go, not just focused on the twins.
Posted by: DantheMan

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 10:33 PM

Quote:

I disagree with the notion that this team goes as far as any player takes it. This team is built with redundancies. If and when we lose, it will be due to multiple failures, not one or two.




I guess both Marcus and Markieff are each other's redundancy.

Aside from that, I'm saying they give the team what nobody else can.
Posted by: jjbjhawk

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 10:39 PM

Judging by the freshman talent coming in this year, along with CJ Henry, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Morris twins don't even see the floor come tournament time. Marcus might play 5-10 minutes a game, but no more than that.


The key to this year's team is Xavier Henry.... if he can become the go-to guy on the wing, KU will be VERY tough to beat come March.
Posted by: DantheMan

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 10:56 PM

Quote:

Judging by the freshman talent coming in this year, along with CJ Henry, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Morris twins don't even see the floor come tournament time. Marcus might play 5-10 minutes a game, but no more than that.





Posted by: kufanboy

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 11:15 PM

Quote:

Judging by the freshman talent coming in this year, along with CJ Henry, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Morris twins don't even see the floor come tournament time. Marcus might play 5-10 minutes a game, but no more than that.


The key to this year's team is Xavier Henry.... if he can become the go-to guy on the wing, KU will be VERY tough to beat come March.





I may be taking the bait, but thats just plain dumb. Marcus will start all year long.

At the beginning of the year, every year, everyone always starts talking about how the freshman are going to be the best players. It very rarely happens. I would be shocked if any freshman other than Xavier start consistently at any time this year.
Posted by: kufanboy

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/04/09 11:15 PM

damn, dantheman's response was way better than mine.
Posted by: mjlindsm

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/05/09 01:08 AM

Quote:

OK, it's just a pre-season theory, but hang with me.

Collins and Aldrich are great players, but we know we need higher level, more consistent contributions from the supporting cast to win the championship. Goodman, and some others, think the key to our season is the arrival of X as our third scorer.

I disagree. I think X will be a good player, and he can help us stretch opposing defenses, but I would argue that our season more tightly aligned with the performance of the twins. When KU plays the other elite teams in the country, the frontline is going to set the tone for the game.

KU's perimeter matches up pretty well with anyone. But when I look at Texas, MSU, UNC, and UK, I see a lot of beef inside. How our frontline fares against James, Pittman, Chapman, Roe, Morgan, Nix, Davis, Zeller, Wear Bros, Thompson, Patterson, Cousins, and Orton will set the tone for the game, decide who has more shots and possessions, and, ultimately, decide our fate.

The Morrises anchor Aldrich's help inside, and can do so many things. They give us muscle, inside/out scoring, ball handling, passing, experience and stability. It's easy to see that these things help a team win, but hidden to some is the fact that most of these things also directly affect Aldrich's ability to stay out of foul trouble. For example, without the twins, who would Self look to for inside scoring help? How often would Aldrich be around the ball, winded, just because Self felt like he couldn't take him out? How often will Aldrich be caught out of position, because of someone's mistake?

I think the twins must be what we think they are: improved, stronger versions of last year's duo. Robinson and Withey will help, but they will need time to grow, and they haven't been through an NCAA tournament yet. Neither has X.

Agree? Disagree?

Edit: Meant to include DeMarcus Cousins to list of frontcourt challenges, if we play UK.




Nice use of the lunch hour.

I agree with everything you say. Biggest thing I think we need from them is vast improvement in decision making and defensive rebounding. If they can give us solid contributions their without getting worse in anything else, they'll fulfill their roles.
Posted by: KMan_24

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/05/09 01:22 AM

UNC may be talented, deep. But they are young, and not physical. That will make a hell of a difference. They will get knocked all the over the floor. Our guys will run with anyone, but they will also run and hit. If you are a big, but you are not a head hunter, what good are you? We played 15 years of Roy's finesse ball, and it always got beat in tourney play when other teams would dare not to outrun us but out tough us. This year, we will be another team of interchangeable parts.

I'm glad this team can score, because I think teaching offensive talents to play defense is easier than teaching defensive specialist how to play offense. Tighten up the D, and we'll be good.
Posted by: HunterThompson

Re: We will go as far as the twins take us - 11/05/09 08:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Could have been because of the redshirt maybe??




lighten the [censored] up




I love it when some gonad tries to get smart and my army shuts him down.